posted 09-26-2003 05:49 PM                  

I did as suggested and went out and bought a digital air temp sensor. I measured the temp in the engine compartment near the airbox with the hood closed and the hot engine idling. The temp went above the maximum of the unit (158 degrees F.) I expected really bad news when I checked the air temp INSIDE the airbox just outside of the filter. I actually put the sensor INSIDE THE AIRBOX. See the picture below. The sensor is inside the airbox on the white wire you see in the photo.

While I was inserting the sensor (I be a lot of you like it when I talk that way,) I looked very closely at how the air was actually brought into the airbox. I hear a lot of talk about the “Door Cavity” being the source. The air is NOT drawn in through the door cavity. There is a double seal running along the bottom of the door that tapers against the side of the door that would prevent much air at all from entering there.

The real entry port for the intake air is through the square hole above the airbox, just above and to the left of the silver colored ID P/N Tag. Look at the picture below.

Upon further examination I noticed there were seals closing the gaps around the hood hinge area. I realized the air is brought in through the driver side cowl. That is why the Passenger side is NOT slotted. The reason is to prevent rain from being sucked in the passenger side and down to the air intake on the airbox. By the time any rain brought in on the drivers side got there it would have drained out through the cowl cavity drains.

After seeing this I was somewhat at ease as to what my findings would be. The air temps were VERY close to OAT, that is, ambient air. The ONLY time this was not the case, was when the vehicle was idling and not passing much air through the box. The temps then increased because the airbox was then able to get "Heat Soaked" from the engine compartment heat. It took 5 minutes or so of driving to bring down the intake temp because all this heat-soaked plastic had to be cooled by the air passing through the airbox.

Examples of temps are with OAT of 79F to 81F during the testing:
1. 60MPH Airbox Temp 91F to 94F
Temps increased 3 or 4 degrees accelerating, then cooled back down.

2. 80MPH Temp 93F

3. Cruising around Stop and Go Traffic. Temps ran between 92F and 101F

4. Idling 10 minutes with A/C ON. Temp rose to 145F

I did the same test with the rear hood seal both removed, and in place. The results were identical. I think removing the seal will actually draw hot engine air into the cowl duct when standing still. I would suggest reinstalling it if you removed it hoping for better performance.

What this means in a nutshell is...All you guys and gals that spent hundreds of dollars on supposedly "Cold Air Intakes" that suck HOT air from within the engine compartment, wound up increasing the intake temp by 40 to 50 degrees over the excellent factory design.

I think that simply covering the airbox (Inside the engine compartment) with a "Heat Shield Blanket" to prevent it from being radiantly heated, covering the air inlet tube with heat shield wrap, sealing up the factory gasket around the airbox (preventing any engine compartment air from entering,) and installing a less restrictive K/N (factory type) air filter in the factory box will give us near OAT intake air, great performance, and save us a bunch of money.

Ed Holler
Lake Conroe, TX.

posted 09-26-2003 08:26 PM                  

I should say ,,,,,,

Excellent Investigating

Makes everyone think I would hope

posted 09-26-2003 10:16 PM                  

Thanks again to all who do the things and study the problems in a way that I am not able to.

posted 09-27-2003 06:29 AM                  

JD, Dang , I don't mean to offend guy or affect our friendship, but what point are you trying to make? Did someone pee in your soup or something lately? Chill out dude.

posted 09-27-2003 09:42 AM                  

1. Stock Air box, installing a K&N stock replacement is a big help, but keep in mind this is the same filter that fits the Neon, also please look at the K&N filter when you buy them as some of them have excess glue around the edges that block off a lot of surface area.

2. Installing a MTD or similar set up you increase depending on the filter your surface area to draw air by 2 to 2 1/2 times over the stock filter. So now that you have more air in you will want to get that air out faster so exhaust is needed to be upgraded, this is another subject but most everyone agrees the stock system needs to go.

3. In the case of my side panels on a stock air box they route a volume of air to the air cleaner greater than the stock set up at outside temp once the car is moving as little as 10MPH. Same will hold true for routing to a supercharger or MTD.

4. Decreasing under hood temps not only makes better air but keeps the motor cooler and that in turn makes more power. I do not want to start something here and maybe Bob L. can add to this but I had a 93 Cobra and I wrapped the cats on this car and they went bad at 20000 miles I replaced them at a cost of $1100 and had a big fight with Ford as I felt it was a warranty item and the reply was " I altered the cat system by putting heat wrap on them that caused them to overheat and burn out " I thought this was bull and wrapped the second set and guess what at about 18000 the new set started to rattle. So I am not saying yes or no to this mod just sharing what happened to me. I will be removing my cats all together and will be wrapping the new headers and y pipe on the Prowler.

4. Putting a heat shield/blanket on the air box or tubes is a great idea and you can buy this stuff all over get the kind that is a self adhesive sheet with foil on the outside as this will reflect the radiant heat produced by the exhaust.

So what I am doing over the winter is.
1.New Headers and Y pipe with no cats and wrapping them.
2.Making a piece of duct work to match my side panel to the MTD air cleaner set up.
3. Installing the New Evans cooling radiator and coolant.

posted 09-27-2003 11:16 AM                  

quote:

---

Originally posted by BeWare:
JD, Dang , I don't mean to offend guy or affect our friendship, but what point are you trying to make? Did someone pee in your soup or something lately? Chill out dude.

---

Hey Rich, no one "peed in my soup" as you put it. And no need to chill here.

My point was, and always has been, to ask for the test of stock set up before doing any changes. I have been guilty myself of jumping too soon and being sorry for it later. Remember I'm the guy with the oversized radiator just for starters.

I only posted three times on this thread including this one I think. And I have posted in others associated with this. And each time I'm pretty sure, (I don't police myself}, was to ask what the stock readings were. The second time was to get yours, and others attention.
Seemed like it worked. Good.

There are many other post on here that offer upgrades without proving it really is a improvement. I was merely asking for those who do to be accountable for what they offer.

And, you can bet your a$$ if somebody "peed in my soup" as you so eloquently put it, I would not be taking this venue to respond to it.

Peace

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posted 09-27-2003 09:32 PM                  

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob Goetz:
OK here I go I hope I do not lose anybody here, a motor is an air pump the more air you get in the more you need to get out and yes air temp is a factor.

---

The amount of air a normally aspirated motor will breathe in is determined by the displacement of the engine (the area within the cylinders at the completion of the intake stroke) and the pressure of the air (Manifold Pressure.) Any resistance to the air will cause a drop in manifold pressure (and therefore the air density of the charge within the manifold) and in turn decrease the power produced. That is why your cars run better when it's cool outside...Because the air is more dense...That is, the air is more compacted and thus MORE AIR MOLECULES and likewise more fuel/air mixture per cubic inch of displacement.

The amount of power that will be produced will depend on both the temperature and the density of the air (density being the most important.) Heating the air causes it to expand and therefore become "less dense." Heat is the BIG CULPRIT. Other than installing a S/C or T/C there isn't anything we can do to increase density as density is deterrmined by the OAT and atmospheric pressure at any given time. But we can CONTROL the existing density by controlling and preventing any additional heat! Once heat destroys density there is no turning back. It's GONE!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob Goetz:
1. Stock Air box, installing a K&N stock replacement is a big help, but keep in mind this is the same filter that fits the Neon, also please look at the K&N filter when you buy them as some of them have excess glue around the edges that block off a lot of surface area.

---

I agree, "Installing a K&N stock replacement is a big help," but please tell me what is WRONG with the Neon Box? Could you please be more specific? Just because it is on a Neon, doesn't make it a bad design.

Chrysler engineers work hard to be able to produce the most efficient motors they can. One would assume they wouldn't put in a box that didn't provide OPTIMAL airflow for that engine. If they could get an extra 10to15 HP by simply adding a nickels worth of plastic by making a larger airbox they would have surely done it. If they could get cheap HP, they would!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob Goetz:
2. Installing a MTD or similar set up you increase depending on the filter your surface area to draw air by 2 to 2 1/2 times over the stock filter. So now that you have more air in you will want to get that air out faster so exhaust is needed to be upgraded, this is another subject but most everyone agrees the stock system needs to go.

---

You may increase the area 2 1/2 times but the engine doesn't take in 2 1/2 times more air. The engine draws a given amount of air each intake stroke (every 2 revolutions.) The only difference would possibly be the slight drop in manifold pressure caused by having to suck the air through a more restrictive filter. But the fact of the matter is, NO ONE has proven, or offered any scientific data as to what, if any, the possible drop in MP might be with the stock box compared to any other aftermarket filter. All we hear is these so called "Cold Air Systems" (that actually suck in HOT AIR) provide 2 1/2 times more area. SO WHAT!

I'm from Misssouri ...The "SHOW ME" state. For any of these companies to have any credibility they need to "SHOW ME" under "CONTROLLED CONDITIONS" the numbers. BOTH the stock box AND the intake presented. They should be measured on a dyno with set parameters and a HOT ENGINE, WITH THE HOOD CLOSED, just like the conditions we drive our cars in.

Let’s see how much HP gain is really produced with 2 1/2 times more area when sucking in 180 to 200 degree air!

Quite frankly, I believe, any drop (IF any) in MP due to the stock box would be MORE than offset by a higher intake temperature, and therefore less dense air charge, of ANY FILTER, or for that matter NO AIR FILTER AT ALL, IF the air is superheated as is the air from ALL of these advertised intakes that take their air from under the hood.

The ONLY way to get an OAT charge is to take the air from outside the engine compartment like the stock system does, and then protect it from the detriments of HEAT!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob Goetz:
3. In the case of my side panels on a stock air box they route a volume of air to the air cleaner greater than the stock set up at outside temp once the car is moving as little as 10MPH. Same will hold true for routing to a supercharger or MTD.

---

Yes, and your side panels do look cool! BUT...The stock system also takes its' air from OUTSIDE by way of the cowl induction and also provides a more than adequate supply of ambient air to the box.

Providing "MORE AIR" to the box isn't going to make the engine take more air in. The ONLY two ways that can be done is by reducing resistance in the air filter (which would be negligible) or compress the air as with a supercharger or turbocharger...BIG BUCKS!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob Goetz:
4. Putting a heat shield/blanket on the air box or tubes is a great idea and you can buy this stuff all over get the kind that is a self adhesive sheet with foil on the outside as this will reflect the radiant heat produced by the exhaust.

---

You got it buddy! I think I am going to get the heat shields specifically made for this purpose available at speed shops or online at any of the big performance parts suppliers.

There are several companies that make all sorts of heat shield products for things like hoses, wire harnesses, intake tubes, etc. etc. One company is DEI. Some companies even make it in colors, so you can personalize your Kat!

Ed Holler
Lake Conroe, TX.

posted 09-29-2003 07:22 AM                  

Chrysler engineers work hard to be able to produce the most efficient motors they can. One would assume they wouldn't put in a box that didn't provide OPTIMAL airflow for that engine. If they could get an extra 10to15 HP by simply adding a nickels worth of plastic by making a larger airbox they would have surely done it. If they could get cheap HP, they would!"

I think I can answer that question. Chrysler was more concerned with intake noise suppression. I think they were trying to avoid the whistling that occurs with increased air intake...

posted 09-29-2003 11:40 AM                  

it off a 2001 blue

lighten up this to see it better

------------------

posted 09-29-2003 01:29 PM                  

ON THE AIRBOX/AIR CLEANER, I called the dealer parts guy for some info, it looks like DC changed the Neon air cleaner to a cone style in 2000. The stock air cleaner in the Prowler measures out at 11" X 5 1/2" the stock air cleaner in a 300M ( same motor as the Prowler) measures out at 9 1/2" X 7" I am no math wiz but the 300 air cleaner is about 10% larger so they must think the motor can use the extra air. And by your description the snorkel for the Prowler Air Box is sealed of in that area and gets its cool air from a 2 inch hole in the cowl the stock set up must have to suck air from that small hole because with air passing over the hood and windshield I would think it would create a vacuum and pull air away from the cowl.

On the cone style air cleaner you do get more surface area to draw air from and yes it is heated air so the plus or minus HP gain is anyones guess unless someone has done a dyno pull with both set ups and I think Mike K has.

My side panels with a stock air box and a K&N filter, last year at the Prowler drags I made more passes than anyone else. If memory serves me right I made 9 passes were I left the car in drive and ran the quarter mile my car ran 14.82 to 14.83 all day. Some of the cars with stock airboxs were running 15 flat when the car was cold and then running 15.40 after the car was heat soaked. So do my panels make the car faster I have no idea but they do make it more consistent and personally like the look.

So I guess what I am saying is my panels with a cone style air cleaner is going to give the car all the air it wants at outside temps. Anyone that has called me about parts of any kind performance or appearance and ask's me what I think I tell them my opion and many times it cost's me money. I sure wished I could make the drags this year but I do not think it will happen so I hope someone will keep track of E.T's and mods that have been done to some of the cars and that way we can see real world info.

posted 09-29-2003 04:30 PM                  

Last year at the CTC event Bob is talking about, our Kat ran 15:10 all day until the eliminations started. I ran aginst Bob the majority of the time and ran nearly as often as he did. My Kat only had the MTD intake and Borla exhaust. I believe Bob was running gears but he will have to confirm that. Just prior to eliminations it had been sitting for about 1/2 hour or so with the hood up. I ran (these are not the exact numbers) a 14.9 at 91 + mph. I had dialed in a 15:09 so I broke out and was elimnated in the first round. CJ also ran a very close but slightly slower 14.9 in the last elimination run against Bob. She had also dialed in a 15:09 and broke out and therefore lost the race. CJ had the Mopar Borla and stock Air Box. Not sure if she had the K&N filter installed. She does have louvered side panels which I am sure benefited her in the form of under hood heat reduction.
To net it out my Kat ran as fast if not faster than all other stock Prowlers the entire day. At the end of the day I posted the quickest ET and fastest MPH of any Prowler without the gears installed. I have no idea if the MTD intake helped or not. I am going to experiment this year and make a run with the side panel on and one with it off (if they permit it) to see if there is any signifcant difference.
Maybe Bob will lend me one of his side panels for a pass down the track as well. This year I have Stage 1 gears installed. Dave has gears installed as well so we can also compare our performance. This isn't Dyno testing, but is track testing which hopefully is the next best thing. This will only be my second experience running the quarter mile. I am sure others will post the results on this thread also.
I agree with everyone, this is one of the most informative threads ever posted. Thanks to Dave and BB and for all the research done to date.

posted 09-29-2003 05:04 PM                  

I am glad I didn't offend you. That is not my intent. So in that spirit...Let’s continue the discussion.

Bob Said: “ON THE AIRBOX/AIR CLEANER, I called the dealer parts guy for some info, it looks like DC changed the Neon air cleaner to a cone style in 2000. The stock air cleaner in the Prowler measures out at 11" X 5 1/2" the stock air cleaner in a 300M ( same motor as the Prowler) measures out at 9 1/2" X 7" I am no math wiz but the 300 air cleaner is about 10% larger so they must think the motor can use the extra air. And by your description the snorkel for the Prowler Air Box is sealed of in that area and gets its cool air from a 2 inch hole in the cowl the stock set up must have to suck air from that small hole because with air passing over the hood and windshield I would think it would create a vacuum and pull air away from the cowl.”

Actually, My STOCK filter surface area is only 9.5”X 4.5”, or 42.75 Square inches of surface area. The Outer dementions of the filter body is roughly 10.75X 5.5
The area of the intake tube is aproximately 7.07 sq.in. Using the formula for a 3" diameter tube A =Pi R2 or 3.1415 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 7.068375. That means the stock filter has a surface area roughly 6.05 times larger than the opening in the intake tube.

I am NOT disputing that a filter with MORE surface area WILL pass more air provided all other variables are equal. A “LARGER AREA” filter won’t be of any help IF it is less efficient per square inch. Like the girls say “Size isn’t everything”

The point I was making is that a filter with a larger surface area won’t do you a bit of good (and could very well be detrimental) “IF” it is sucking HOT AIR. Please RE read my post and I believe you will see that is what I said.

Also, upon further examination of my Prowler I noticed the source of the intake air is NOT ONLY from the cowl induction on the drivers side cowl, but also outside air can be brought in through the large gap about ½” x 4” near the inside aft, right side of the hood hinge, and also the along entire vertical length of the gap between the side panel and the front door. I would think all this combined area would provide enough air to supply the intake tube.

As for the air being pulled away from the cowl? I don’t have the wind tunnel and other aerodynamic testing results but I do have some limited experience with basic aerodynamics and I believe the basic principals of fluid dynamics say the air will take the path of least resistance. So if we have unobstructed airflow over the hood and it encounters resistance (the windshield) the pressure INCREASES! Where will it go? It will follow the path of LEAST RESISTANCE! It will seek the lowest pressure first.

Common sense and my limited knowledge of aerodynamics tell me the area of lowest pressure is down the cowl where the air is actually being sucked in by the engine. The rest will follow the path of the windshield. I doubt very seriously Chrysler would have chosen that method for intake design if it didn’t work. You are entitled to your opinion based on your life experiences and I the same.

I fly airplanes for a living, and I see day in and day out how temperature and air density affects performance. It’s uncanny to feel the difference in performance when it is hot versus cool. Also the difference in performance is dramatic when the air is less dense such as at high altitude airports. Taking hot air from the engine compartment is the worst of both worlds. You not only have the HEAT to contend with, but with the heat you have destroyed the DENSITY.

BOB SAID: “On the cone style air cleaner you do get more surface area to draw air from and yes it is heated air so the plus or minus HP gain is anyones guess unless someone has done a dyno pull with both set ups…”

That is exactly what I said. I also said the Dyno testing should be done in a controlled environment. It should use the same vehicle, impartial testers, and the engine at normal operating temperature with the hood closed. In other words, in real world conditions. Making unsubstantiated claims of HP gains without all the facts to back them up like many of these under the hood HOT AIR intake systems do is flat out decptive.

BOB SAID: “My side panels with a stock air box and a K&N filter, last year at the Prowler drags I made more passes than anyone else. If memory serves me right I made 9 passes were I left the car in drive and ran the quarter mile my car ran 14.82 to 14.83 all day. Some of the cars with stock airboxs were running 15 flat when the car was cold and then running 15.40 after the car was heat soaked. So do my panels make the car faster I have no idea but they do make it more consistent and personally like the look.”

I agree 100%. That is why the COLD STOCK BOX runs were so close to yours. That is also why I suspect by simply placing a heat shield blanket around the stock box to prevent it from becoming heat soaked, sealing off the stock box a little better because it does suck some hot air from around the front of the big vertical gasket seal, Installing a less restrictive K/N type filter, and insulating the intake tube from the airbox to the engine will probably give the STOCK BOX cars the same consistency you are enjoying with very little expense.

Don’t get me wrong…There is nothing wrong with your side panels. I like the looks of them. I just think a few simple low cost insulators and sealing up the area in front of the stock airbox will provide at or near the same temps and more than adequate airflow. Maybe when someone comes up with………….UH- O….I got an Idea!

Ed Holler
Lake Conroe, TX.

posted 09-29-2003 07:57 PM                  

Ed, I went up in the attic to find my stock air filter. I found my front and rear bumpers, stock transmission cooler, stock muffler, stock tailpipes, stock gears, and a Christmas tree, but I could not find my stock air box. I am not planning on putting on the stock air filter, bumpers, muffler, tailpipes (or the Christmas tree!). I wanted to figure out where the stock air box gets its air after re-reading your above post. I also took off the right side panel to try to remember the air flow. Does all the air come through the right angle plastic air thingie to the stock air box? If so, how does the air come from the cowl? It looks like the air would be coming from the door jamb, but being isolated from the engine heat by the foam gasket. How does air get from "NOT ONLY from cowl induction on the driver's side cowl?"

Rich, I was also wondering if folks removed their side panels and had the K&N cone filter, they might be sucking ambient air.

posted 09-29-2003 08:20 PM                  

The Cowl air comes through the 2"x2" square hole above and to the left of the silver colored P/N tag as pictured above. More air comes from behind the hood hinge on the passenger side and from in between the side panel and the front door. At least that's how it looks.

Ed