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| Author | Topic: Fuel Pump Assembly, Blue Seal |
dru            POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Texas |
posted 02-23-2016 09:41 PM
    
I'm referencing another post which discussed the blue seal in the fuel pump assembly and an alternative fuel pump assembly to scavenge for the needed part. ( http://www.prowleronline.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/005333.html ) Thanks to PGPG42 (Dave) for his tenacity in tracking down an alternative part to use. Thanks also to Tom Mills for trying to find an alternative source as well. It turns out pgpg42 and I were having the same problem and he found a solution. I am only posting some pictures for future reference. I think this is a lot more common than previously thought. Sugar's (I'vegotsugar) Prowler left her stranded one day. She finally got it started and limped to a dealership. It threw a code for O2 sensor, they replaced, then told her it was a fuel pump and would cost $1300 to replace!!! Yes, $1300! Since none were available, they would have to get it from the Prowler Store for $1000!! and $300 for installation. She asked me and I told her to screw them, we would repair it ourselves as John Collins has a great step by step tutorial http://www.prowleronline.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003719.html So she drove it home, we ordered the pump from Tom Mills (excellent kit), and replaced the pump. When I opened the assembly housing, noticed the blue seal didn't look right as part of it looked like it had split and the whole thing was tilted, but having never opened one up before, I didn't know what they were supposed to look like. After putting everything back together, it fired up, etc but after turning off, it just seemed to crank longer than it should on restart, certainly longer than mine. So started to think about the possibility of a bad fuel pressure regulator also. Then a few days later, saw the discussion on the above link. That's when the light bulb went off and made me think we had the same problem. But wanted to compare fuel pressures between hers and mine first. Mine was 50 psi on key on, then 60 psi running, then key off 52, and very slow drop over next 24 hours. When finally checked her pressure, key on 20 psi and would immediately fall to 0 when key off, start and 30 psi running, turn key off, immediately 0 psi. (First lesson, check the fuel pressures yourself. Even though the dealership told her it was a bad fuel pump, I know it had some pressure as she drove it home. So was it just the blue seal causing low pressure all along? And for the smarter guys on here, will a fuel pump fail completely with no pressure, or will it show low pressure as a sign of failure?)
The new one looks very similar and could be a direct plug and play replacement I think if the plug was different Removed the old assembly. Then use the red wedge tool to open both assemblies The gasket on the left, white over black is the replacement for the old blue gasket. It is glued in place so you can't take it from this assembly and put it on the old assembly Also, if you notice, there's no grommet/wires that go through the new cover so you'll need to reroute the wires. This message has been edited by dru on 02-27-2016 at 04:12 PM |
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pgpg42 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Bradenton, Fl Manatee |
posted 02-23-2016 10:30 PM
Hey Dru, Today Robin posted photos of the blue seal I removed from my fuel pump module. I would be interested to see how it compares to the one you removed. I suspect these were not seated properly when they were bonded in place from the factory and the fuel leaking past under 50 lbs or so of pressure eroded the seal. My car has only about 5500 miles so it did not take long to happen. Dave |
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thelonewayneger POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:schertz, tx, guadelupe |
posted 02-24-2016 11:14 AM
good info to know thx |
Tom Mills        POA Site Supporter and Vendor Prowler Junkie Tom Mills / Jefferson Auto prowlerparts@jeffersonautocollision.com From:Niles, MI and Punta Gorda FL |
posted 02-24-2016 04:51 PM
I am working with my supplier to see if they will sell me the part we need with the seal in it so we don't have to buy the complete van pump to get the seal and housing that is needed. I will let you know as soon as I get an answer. He is on Vacation this week. |
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dru POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Texas |
posted 02-24-2016 08:39 PM
So when the previously repaired assembly was opened back up, the blue gasket was split although there weren't 2 ends sticking out, only one.
It turns out the other piece that had stuck out broke off and was in the bottom of the pump assembly.
This message has been edited by dru on 02-25-2016 at 06:52 AM |
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dru POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Texas |
posted 02-24-2016 08:53 PM
 Once the blue gasket was removed, the area it was bonded to
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dru POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Texas |
posted 02-24-2016 09:19 PM
Once you have it apart, you'll need to reroute the wiring, so you need to remove the pump wiring from the plug and pull it back through the grommet and run it through the notch in the new pump cover.  it will look like this
but to get to that point, you will have to separate the new and old intermediate covers from their respective assemblies. To do so you need to get this hook (L side) off of the cover but to do so, you need to compress this spring a little so that you can then push the plastic shaft enough to disengage the hook that holds it in place. Once it is disengaged, rotate the upper piece to where it lies flat on the cover then you can slide it straight out. There are 2 o-rings that are present so make sure they are in place when you reassemble. |
ed monahan POA Lifetime Site Supporter Prowler Junkie Personal ScrapBook From:Cincinnati, Oh, USA |
posted 02-24-2016 09:24 PM
Thanks for posting all the pics and the explanation. I hope I never need to use it, but it will be a great resource if any of us do need it. |
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dru POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Texas |
posted 02-24-2016 09:44 PM
 You can see the gaskets in the next couple of photos
Ignore the color of the housings in the pictures as I forgot to take pics as I was doing it and went back to recreate the removal of the spring, clip, etc. I hope this helps anyone else having trouble with the blue gasket in the fuel pump assembly. I think it is or will be more common in the future. It would be nice if this were just a plug and play replacement (the cost for the entire assembly with pump is about $100)but to do so it would need a new wiring plug and the clips that hold the gas lines on the assembly. Maybe someone can look at that as the plastic in the old housing may break over time. This message has been edited by dru on 02-25-2016 at 06:56 AM |
NiteProwl64 Prowler Enthusiast From:Florida |
posted 02-25-2016 08:32 AM
Will that minivan pump actually fit into the tank as it was? The angles look completely different and I'm curious as to it physically fitting in, and even if it does fit, would it throw off the gas gauge because of the angle its at? Is the sending unit rated with the same resistance? This has led to more questions than answers for me. LoL. I can tell you, I have put together a ton of these pumps and it would be nice to know there is a viable option to just slap in and not cost a million bucks... This deserves some more attention me thinks! |
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pgpg42 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Bradenton, Fl Manatee |
posted 02-25-2016 10:06 AM
The mini van pump will not work as is. However, if you exchange the top lid (the part that actually seals to the fuel tank) the pump module will fit into the Prowler tank. The hardest part of doing this is moving the wires for the pump and fuel gauge. It requires a removal/insertion tool. Exchanging the lid itself is very easy, just squeeze the tube with the spring and twist. I did not use the mini van fuel sending unit, but they look the same. |
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dru POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Texas |
posted 02-25-2016 10:02 PM
quote: Will it fit as is? Did I try it, no. But I think it would fit, feels like right size and configuration. Are the angles identical, don't know but similar angles. Truth be told I did not hold them up side by side to compare as I was busy trying to get the one fixed. But I should have done a direct comparison. It seems like it would work with modifications to the wiring plug and gas line clips but only an impression. Is it the same resistance, haven't a clue. Not sure how different float angle is either. Maybe next time someone has to replace they can do a direct comparison. |
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NiteProwl64 Prowler Enthusiast From:Florida |
posted 02-26-2016 10:23 AM
Dru, Thanks for the info, this is an investigation that is definitely worth following up on. I am curious as to if we were to just swap the sending units and fix the wiring if it would be a good drop in fix. I will have to launch an investigation on my own for this one. I have a pump laying around somewhere... This message has been edited by NiteProwl64 on 02-26-2016 at 10:36 AM |
George Johnson POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Katy, TX USA |
posted 02-27-2016 09:06 PM
Joe, Thanks for the great write up and pictures! I wasn't aware you were such a gearhead. This is an issue all Prowler Owners need to be aware of with the fuel pump issue. If I have any fuel pump problems, I'll be calling on your advice! |
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dru POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Texas |
posted 02-28-2016 09:45 PM
quote: HA HA, gearhead is a gross exaggeration and way too generous George! Like most men, I can follow instructions! The real thanks goes to John Collins for such a great writeup on replacing fuel pump and Dale (pgpg42) for doing the leg work to figure out a solution. |
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dru POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Texas |
posted 03-28-2016 09:36 PM
Blue seal failure strikes again. An owner in east Texas contacted me last week with problems similar to Sugars. No start or hard start when engine warm. He made it to a local dealer. Was a fuel pressure problem. Initially told him no new fuel pumps available. But the owner printed off this post and after looking at it, they decided they could harvest parts from town & country pump assembly. Owner offered to get one from Autozone but dealer insisted it be a Chrysler pump, had to order it. He contacted me and I told him we can fix it ourselves but he had already told them to go ahead as he didn't want to put anyone out. The fuel pressures were just like Sugar, 30 running, drop to 0 immediately when key off. He sent pictures today. Blue seal  this was part of the printout they gave him For the bad news, cost him $850 for them to do the work. They would not use the Town & Country fuel pump assembly from Autozone, so they charged him $400 for the "Chrysler" fuel pump assembly they had to order. Just my opinion but I think this will become more and more of a problem. |
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dru POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Texas |
posted 03-28-2016 09:43 PM
Sugar had exactly same problem, key on 20 psi, immediately drop to 0 when key off, running 30 psi, but 0 when shut off. When we finished with hers (new pump (Tom Mills) and new seal), pressures running 65 psi, key off 58 psi and held for at least 30-60 minutes. It will fall gradually over next 24 hours. |
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RPL POA Lifetime Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Rochester Hills, MI, USA |
posted 03-28-2016 09:52 PM
Sorry to say this but can you say ethanol? Fuel had less than 5% ethanol when Prowler was designed. They moved to the 10% that we have today, a 100% increase. If the Feds have their way, we will move to 15% ethanol. Check http://www.pure-gas.org/ to see if there is a station near you that sells ethanol free gasoline. Owners should also consider using one of the premium fuel treatments like Stabil Ethanol Treatment or Joe Gibbs Driven Carb Defender on a regular basis as they fill up. I know this is sure to cause an uproar but I wanted to share my research. I can tell you that the problems we were seeing with our small engines, tractors and boats stopped when we went to ethanol free gasoline. The difficult to start ones can now be started with a lot less effort. This is from four years of experience after switching to ethanol free gasoline. I'm thankful for the work around to rebuild the fuel pump that was developed and shared here on the site and Tom Mills fuel pump kit. A very big THANK YOU! |
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Tom Mills POA Site Supporter and Vendor Prowler Junkie Tom Mills / Jefferson Auto prowlerparts@jeffersonautocollision.com From:Niles, MI and Punta Gorda FL |
posted 03-28-2016 10:23 PM
I am working on an affordable drop in fix for the above problem. I hope to have a solution in a few weeks. Stay tuned. |
robin POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:St Thomas Ontario Canada |
posted 03-29-2016 03:06 AM
Dru.....thank you for your endless work on this fuel pump......... One question ? I had to go for a scope last week and my proctalagist doesn't have near the camera quality you have.... |
mslc10 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Bulverde, Texas, United States |
posted 03-29-2016 07:55 PM
quote: Silly doctor ! Everyone knows those are books of the bible: Nice research and thanks for doing it Joe! This message has been edited by mslc10 on 03-29-2016 at 08:02 PM |
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dru POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Texas |
posted 03-31-2016 09:36 PM
quote: That would be great news Tom, drop in and affordable. If nothing else, tweak the Town and Country application with an electrical connection and connectors for the gas lines. That way if the plastic tabs on the assembly breaks when you're trying to disassemble, you won't be out of luck. Thanks again for your dedication and energy towards a fix.
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ivegotsugar POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Texas |
posted 04-03-2016 12:42 PM
WANTED TO GIVE DRU A HUGE OVER DUE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF APPRECIATION FOR HIS EFFORTS TO GET ME BACK ON THE ROAD NOT TO MENTON SAVE ME $$$ . ALSO THANKS TO JIM FOR COMING OUT TO OFFER HIS ASSISTANCE WHAT GREAT FRIENDS GOD LOVE YOU GUYS Sugar BTW I ONLY USE SHELL'S V POWER This message has been edited by ivegotsugar on 04-03-2016 at 01:06 PM |
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quincy POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Fairfield Glade, TN. USA |
posted 04-06-2016 11:21 AM
Very valuable post and information. Details were excellent. Photos supurbe! Great mechanical mind!! |
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