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Author Topic:   Catastrophic Transmission failure and rebuild
CaptainJackSpeed

From:Memphis, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2024
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posted 03-19-2024 08:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptainJackSpeed     send a private message to CaptainJackSpeed   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by CaptainJackSpeed
Hello all,
I am new here and a Prowler owner since last December.
Background: I am an aircraft mech, auto mech, and heavy diesel mech. My main auto specialty is vintage cars, particularly Model T- 34 Fords and flathead V-8s.

The incident: Was driving home with pizza aboard and changed lanes before stopping at a red light. The car had almost stopped when I felt and heard a pop in the transmission. It felt as though a CV axle had popped out of place. The transaxle felt dis-jointed and unusual. I drove home. The next day when I went into reverse, it sounded like a bucket of bolts. No reverse. Into drive, grinding noises and little motion. I ordered the input/output sensors and installed them. No change. The rear sensor had metal shavings all over the probe. This is in the area of the clutch packs.
So, its off to the transmission shop for a total rebuild. I'll post updates with pictures of the damage and causes.
I will be doing a lot of research on problems and the availability of heavy duty performance upgrades and parts. I'll post them and where to get them.
According to a tech serv bulletin, a valve in the valve body can become stuck due to wear of the bore. This causes the computer to direct a surge of oil pressure twice the pressure needed, about 145 psi. This will slam the torque converter piston into the casing and shatter some pieces, resulting in metal shavings in the oil. I suspect this is what happened. But we won't know until I get the car to the shop and they begin the teardown. More later

garysss





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posted 03-19-2024 08:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for garysss     send a private message to garysss   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by garysss
Welcome to POA! Sorry to hear your having problems already. There hasn't been a lot of transmission problems, but there has been a few. Please keep up posted with what the problems are and what the repair is.
Diezel

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posted 03-19-2024 10:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Diezel     send a private message to Diezel   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Diezel
I've always wondered if the transmission could be rebuilt with better/heavy duty parts. I know a shift kit could be installed, but wasn't sure about anything else. Please let us know what upgrades are available, what you decided to go with and any difference you have while driving.
kees






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posted 03-20-2024 08:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kees     send a private message to kees   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by kees
You might want to check this out before investing in a total rebuild.

Brandnew:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265388630767?itmmeta=01HSDZWENM2H8Y8GEE6SVRAG7S&hash=item3dca6522ef:g:TlAAAOSwFONhgeVo&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8PgdjXudQHGej7YTD4%2FFr%2BK1qZsZcgDC5r3kE1en22i DFPH5ITHc9aIbEBOrOI1WuB2%2BmxXhiwOeXmLLZTYc%2Fo%2Bb%2F%2BJt%2BF1DV9MkMAoK0Jel9sDjXWwzGiAag0hjaYs6HgxaWrCbKa0RoYaCRFWSsAzswbs2UohI5BUwup5qBJKEMq1YckOvyuroZEsIx6KuI9RzYWu7z1udbtLS1cw xIdta6tkhN5ZbL3e07sZirfi18szbVCBN%2BQYf%2B7AHWPIctGYWYvh%2BxE2FZD4QabzjEkcnV2ChAqBGnQg%2B5jBGzJthYWWQCvGWtJSisOjY63A7WQ%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMkOvxv8tj

Best regards, Kees

This message has been edited by kees on 03-20-2024 at 08:14 AM

garysss





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posted 03-20-2024 08:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for garysss     send a private message to garysss   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by garysss
quote:
Originally posted by kees:
You might want to check this out before investing in a total rebuild.

Brandnew:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/265388630767?itmmeta=01HSDZWENM2H8Y8GEE6SVRAG7S&hash=item3dca6522ef:g:TlAAAOSwFONhgeVo&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8PgdjXudQHGej7YTD4%2FFr%2BK1qZsZcgDC5r3kE1en22i DFPH5ITHc9aIbEBOrOI1WuB2%2BmxXhiwOeXmLLZTYc%2Fo%2Bb%2F%2BJt%2BF1DV9MkMAoK0Jel9sDjXWwzGiAag0hjaYs6HgxaWrCbKa0RoYaCRFWSsAzswbs2UohI5BUwup5qBJKEMq1YckOvyuroZEsIx6KuI9RzYWu7z1udbtLS1cw xIdta6tkhN5ZbL3e07sZirfi18szbVCBN%2BQYf%2B7AHWPIctGYWYvh%2BxE2FZD4QabzjEkcnV2ChAqBGnQg%2B5jBGzJthYWWQCvGWtJSisOjY63A7WQ%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMkOvxv8tj

Best regards, Kees


Tomcal



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posted 03-20-2024 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tomcal     send a private message to Tomcal   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Tomcal
When rebuilding, install this in 4th gear overdrive clutch pack. Slippage in 4th gear/OD clutch pack is a known weakness in this trans when under full power.

This upgrades 4 fiction discs to 5 discs in 4th gear/OD pack.

http://www.altousa.com/downloads/tech-drawings/04-160-BM347.pdf

Used this at my uncle's trans rebuild shop years ago. Don't know if it's still available.

There are also other mods, increase line pressure slightly, shim solenoid shift valve. Also, use High Energy-Heavey Duty clutch frictions.

If valve body has wear, you may need to install new/better or oversized valves from Sonnax and TransGo

http://www.sonnax.com/tech_resources/1044-chrysler-40-41te-41ae-40-41tes-42le-rle-valve-body-layout

The tech bulletin you mentioned also cause the torque convert to Ballon/swell from too much pressure. I don't think this is your problem.

Sounds like one of the clutch pack snap ring retainers broke or other hard part failure.

What is mileage on car/ transmission?

Keep us updated.

This message has been edited by Tomcal on 03-20-2024 at 01:26 PM

Tony Goertz






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posted 03-20-2024 01:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tony Goertz     send a private message to Tony Goertz   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Tony Goertz
Is there any indication that TCM was changed without doing a "quick learn" resulting in TCM incorrectly controlling valve body ?
CaptainJackSpeed

From:Memphis, TN, USA
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posted 03-21-2024 07:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptainJackSpeed     send a private message to CaptainJackSpeed   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by CaptainJackSpeed
Thank you all for the information. I sent the links for the 5th clutch to the transmission shop. He knew about them.
I will be using a Precision billet HP torque converter and the upgrade billet pistons. Will get a list of everything used and why.
Later today I'll know what went wrong.
Decided not to buy a transmission and rebuild mine to learn all about them. There is little info on the net or videos and the rebuild could be helpful to others through pictures and info. These transmissions are mysterious just because so little info is available.
I hate the look of the cooler on the back of the car. It would be like covering up a quick change on an old Ford hot rod, unthinkable. So, at some point I'll get a bigger HD cooler and move it behind the grill.
Maybe I'll have some pictures of the damage very soon. One thing the trans guy said is that heat ruins them. And slipping clutches in OD will make some serious heat....
Tony Goertz






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posted 03-22-2024 05:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tony Goertz     send a private message to Tony Goertz   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Tony Goertz
Alto stopped making the 5 disc kits many years ago...
WildCat






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From:Oldest kid in the neighborhood..... East side Indy, Indiana, USA
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posted 03-22-2024 05:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WildCat     send a private message to WildCat   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by WildCat
quote:
Originally posted by CaptainJackSpeed:
Thank you all for the information. I sent the links for the 5th clutch to the transmission shop. He knew about them.
I will be using a Precision billet HP torque converter and the upgrade billet pistons. Will get a list of everything used and why.
Later today I'll know what went wrong.
Decided not to buy a transmission and rebuild mine to learn all about them. There is little info on the net or videos and the rebuild could be helpful to others through pictures and info. These transmissions are mysterious just because so little info is available.
I hate the look of the cooler on the back of the car. It would be like covering up a quick change on an old Ford hot rod, unthinkable. So, at some point I'll get a bigger HD cooler and move it behind the grill.
Maybe I'll have some pictures of the damage very soon. One thing the trans guy said is that heat ruins them. And slipping clutches in OD will make some serious heat....

Dave Ridge removed his rear bumpers and cooler, mounted coolers in the opening in valance the bumpers left he drove it quite a bit like this

Will see if I can find pictures of it

------------------
Larry Mayes

WildCat






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posted 03-23-2024 09:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for WildCat     send a private message to WildCat   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by WildCat
quote:
Originally posted by CaptainJackSpeed:
Thank you all for the information. I sent the links for the 5th clutch to the transmission shop. He knew about them.
I will be using a Precision billet HP torque converter and the upgrade billet pistons. Will get a list of everything used and why.
Later today I'll know what went wrong.
Decided not to buy a transmission and rebuild mine to learn all about them. There is little info on the net or videos and the rebuild could be helpful to others through pictures and info. These transmissions are mysterious just because so little info is available.
I hate the look of the cooler on the back of the car. It would be like covering up a quick change on an old Ford hot rod, unthinkable. So, at some point I'll get a bigger HD cooler and move it behind the grill.
Maybe I'll have some pictures of the damage very soon. One thing the trans guy said is that heat ruins them. And slipping clutches in OD will make some serious heat....


wasn't able to find a better picture, I have it just don't know where it is, could be a printed picture due to time they were taken. I brought up old post of Dave Ridge car with trans cooler replaced in holes when bumpers were removed.

BeWare






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posted 03-23-2024 08:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BeWare     send a private message to BeWare   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by BeWare
I found this picture of Daveís car.


BeWare






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posted 03-23-2024 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BeWare     send a private message to BeWare   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by BeWare
Better pictures


WildCat






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From:Oldest kid in the neighborhood..... East side Indy, Indiana, USA
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posted 03-23-2024 09:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WildCat     send a private message to WildCat   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by WildCat
Thanks Rich

I know Iíve got better pictures & those must have been before he did side exit exhaust in front of rear wheels

CaptainJackSpeed

From:Memphis, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2024
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posted 03-24-2024 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptainJackSpeed     send a private message to CaptainJackSpeed   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by CaptainJackSpeed
That is a really good installation! The coolers are very good and that type were used on my wife's 32 Ford Roadster.
Having the exhaust come out near the wheels is a good idea. The last owner of my car put Borla tips on the pipes and they stick out quite a bit. Just doesn't look good. I dropped off the big shop manual to the transmission shop Sat and had quite a talk with the manager. Hopefully the manual will help some.
Once the trans is apart, I'll take pictures and post them.
CaptainJackSpeed

From:Memphis, TN, USA
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posted 03-24-2024 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptainJackSpeed     send a private message to CaptainJackSpeed   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by CaptainJackSpeed
Looks like he has a billet trans oil pan.
WildCat






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posted 03-24-2024 08:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WildCat     send a private message to WildCat   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by WildCat
quote:
Originally posted by CaptainJackSpeed:
Looks like he has a billet trans oil pan.


LOL

If I remember right he wrapped it with roll aluminum flashing

mr.ed



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posted 04-01-2024 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mr.ed     send a private message to mr.ed   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by mr.ed
who is the best to convert to hemi?
mr.ed



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posted 04-01-2024 09:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mr.ed     send a private message to mr.ed   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by mr.ed
who is the best to convert to hemi?
CaptainJackSpeed

From:Memphis, TN, USA
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posted 04-14-2024 02:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptainJackSpeed     send a private message to CaptainJackSpeed   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by CaptainJackSpeed
Went to the trans shop Saturday. I miss the car quite a bit. The trans is out but not torn down yet. Hopefully this week. I am going to add a large HD trans cooler and external spin on oil filter to combat the overheating. There was trans oil residue caked around the upper vents on the trans case indicating vaporization of the oil- excessive heat (according to the trans guy- it makes sense). The factory cooler will be removed and the new one mounted in front of the radiator.
2000SunCity


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posted 04-14-2024 04:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 2000SunCity     send a private message to 2000SunCity   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by 2000SunCity
Probably a good thing to keep in mind that placing an additional large cooler in front of the radiator MAY have a negative effect on engine cooling. Maybe consider a trans cooler like high performance vehicles use with their own cooling fan system; Location of placement is important, too. Aluminum engines are very sensitive about overheating.
Ross L

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posted 04-14-2024 06:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ross L     send a private message to Ross L   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Ross L
wonder if your cooling fan is/was working? maybe an oversized radiator in the factory location? I personally wouldn't delete it completely , but add one in series if you're determined to add more cooling.I remember a video where a guy installed a temp gauge in his transmission and it never went over 185 stock, which is about perfect. Good luck!

This message has been edited by Ross L on 04-14-2024 at 06:43 PM

cdeluca99


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posted 04-15-2024 05:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cdeluca99     send a private message to cdeluca99   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by cdeluca99
I feel like thatís a bad idea. If there was any advantage that would have been designed by Plymouth for our cars. Your car will probably hold an extra quart and a half with that setup. No good in my opinion. The extra fluid may not help and actually make it hotter from the transmission working HARDER to get not only the fluid required to make the transmission work but from running fluid 20í to the engine compartment and back. I wouldnít do that on my car. Just my opinion. We ainít running a TH400 lol

quote:
Originally posted by CaptainJackSpeed:
Went to the trans shop Saturday. I miss the car quite a bit. The trans is out but not torn down yet. Hopefully this week. I am going to add a large HD trans cooler and external spin on oil filter to combat the overheating. There was trans oil residue caked around the upper vents on the trans case indicating vaporization of the oil- excessive heat (according to the trans guy- it makes sense). The factory cooler will be removed and the new one mounted in front of the radiator.

This message has been edited by cdeluca99 on 04-15-2024 at 05:17 AM

CaptainJackSpeed

From:Memphis, TN, USA
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posted 04-19-2024 09:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CaptainJackSpeed     send a private message to CaptainJackSpeed   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by CaptainJackSpeed
Very good points. And checking the fan is a good idea.
I heard from the shop today and they said the planetary is ground up. Hopefully the planetary isn't specific for the Prowler. They are pretty common transmissions . Hopefully we can find one.
I'll post pics when I can
Tomcal



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posted 04-19-2024 02:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tomcal     send a private message to Tomcal   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Tomcal
quote:
Originally posted by CaptainJackSpeed:
Very good points. And checking the fan is a good idea.
I heard from the shop today and they said the planetary is ground up. Hopefully the planetary isn't specific for the Prowler. They are pretty common transmissions . Hopefully we can find one.
I'll post pics when I can

Planetary's very rarely fail. Something else failed which effected planetary. BTW, there are two Planetary's in this trans.

Neither one is specific to Prowlers. Very easy common part to find.

Make sure the trans cooler is Reverse Flushed (if using original) to remove contaminated oil and metal from failed planetary and other debris. Otherwise, you're reintroducing
junk back into trans.

This message has been edited by Tomcal on 04-20-2024 at 11:23 AM


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