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Timing Belt Discussion - Reader Feedback Request (Page 1)

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Author	Topic: Timing Belt Discussion - Reader Feedback Request
quincy POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Fairfield Glade, TN. USA Registered: May 2004 Admin Use	posted 12-13-2016 03:59 PM Long Post..be patient...its winter anyway! Took my Prowler to the local shop for an oil/filter change and full safety inspection prior to winter storage. Everything checked out 'OK' but the master mechanic lambasted me for not having the timing belt changed. Car only has 24K miles, but is 18 years old. (She is a 1999.) Then he points to a Honda Element he just spent 40 + hours rebuilding the engine on because the owner failed to R&R the belt under the recommended time/mile requirement. He showed me the belt from the Honda. Numerous 'teeth' had separated from the belt base material, just like you cut them off with a razor knife. This left a large gap which allowed the belt to slip in the sprocket on the crank end, throwing the timing off enough to allow the valves to hit the pistons on initial start up. We discussed briefly the Chrysler spec of miles and not time on our belt R&R. His reply was that Chrysler might not have been aware of this particular type of belt failure mode during the 3.5L development. Plausible statement from a competent mechanic in my opinion. The Honda belt was in good condition other than the missing teeth. No cracks, no splits, no fraying, and in one piece. Really odd. Please feel free to post your thoughts on this 'hot button' topic once again. ------------------ Current modifications: Dean's performance final drive gears, Tom Mills 'front bumper turn signal relocation kit', Larry Lord's 'Wonder Bar'& trunk hinge protectors, original 'Yeller Cat' CNC machined aluminum billet upper frame brace, super hood struts, F & R mud flaps, engine shimmer dress up kit, rear bumper shimmer, trunk lid paint protector, Original "Kraut" permanent fix for window regulators. Dr. Ru custom pin striping performed at the 10th anniversary event. Etched and under lit LED wind suppressor. Pantera Custom Get-A-Way II Fiberglass carrier. Rigid molded trunk lid carpet. New 'Turbo' high output electric fuel pump. Sweet Thunder 24" X-pipe combo muffler. Preventative 'Catfish' electrical mods at ECM and Drivers side hot lead. New NGK Platinum plugs at 12K. Wider Door opening mod performed at the Smokies event. Drilled and slotted front rotors - Zinc plated - New ceramic brake pads. (4)BF Goodrich 'G-Force Sport tires-ZR speed rated 2014-20K miles. Six Stereo speakers replaced-front dash, door, rear waterfall, Nov 2016; Infinity Kappa Speakers.
RPL POA Lifetime Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Rochester Hills, MI, USA Registered: Jul 2000 Admin Use	posted 12-13-2016 04:28 PM and that's exactly why I've tried to pull together an engineering analysis of timing belts removed from Prowlers. Mileage, build date, driving and storage history. Without a valid sample it pure guess work.
padroo POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Chesterton, IN, USA Registered: Dec 2010 Admin Use	posted 12-13-2016 06:09 PM I changed mine in 2011 with only 7,000 miles on it mainly for peace of mind. There wasn't a thing wrong with it. My take on it is if it is going to make you loose sleep change it if not don't worry about it. JMO We could ask forum members if and when they have changed theirs and if they did what condition was the belt in. I don't remember any jumping time on this forum but i'm sure there had to be a few. If you have changed other timing belts this one isn't much different and a lot easier than some with transverse mounted engines.
phil2237 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:PLACENTIA CALIFORNIA Registered: Feb 2005 Admin Use	posted 12-13-2016 07:15 PM I just changed mine along with the water pump & idler pulley. The timing belt still looked new, but 17 or 18 years is a long time and belts do dry out and can & will break due to age. Any rubber item weakens with age and becomes brittle. The prowler engine is a contact engine ( except the 1997 model with the cast iron block ) which means, if that belt breaks, the valves hit the pistons.....You would be better off and safer just to have it done due to the belt being so old. They may look like new, but age makes them fail & break. While in there also replace the water pump & tensioner. Best to be safe than sorry. It will be cheaper to replace the above parts than an engine. My car has 19,000 mile. JMO This message has been edited by phil2237 on 12-13-2016 at 07:21 PM
TucsonJer POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Tucson, AZ, USA Registered: May 2015 Admin Use	posted 12-13-2016 07:29 PM When I bought my 1999 Prowler, nearly two years ago, I had all the belts, hoses, tires, timing belt and water pump changed. The peace of mind I got was worth the cost. It only had 7k miles on it but the age factor was what bothered me. Jer
RDinTN POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Beautiful East Tennessee Registered: Oct 2016 Admin Use	posted 12-13-2016 09:31 PM I bought my red 1999 four months ago out of Nevada. It came with 42K miles (yes, I enjoyed a high-mile discount). During initial maintenance, I noticed the PCV hose was brittle. That motivated me to R/R hoses, belts, pulleys, install timing belt/ water pump kit and a couple of sensors. Belts still had all teeth. I know I feel better & I'll bet the Radio Flyer does too.
mslc10 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Bulverde, Texas, United States Registered: Nov 2009 Admin Use	posted 12-14-2016 08:28 PM Just had an estimate of $1500 to do belt, pump and pulleys!!!
RDinTN POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Beautiful East Tennessee Registered: Oct 2016 Admin Use	posted 12-14-2016 10:07 PM As a new guy, don't know if it's taboo to suggest, but you might want to find a reputable independent mechanic & unplug from the dealership. The 3.5L engine is a very common animal that just happens to sit inside a unicorn. Try running your needed-parts list thru the Rock Auto Website - brand names/ big savings. RD This message has been edited by RDinTN on 12-15-2016 at 12:31 PM
padroo POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Chesterton, IN, USA Registered: Dec 2010 Admin Use	posted 12-15-2016 07:05 AM quote: Originally posted by mslc10: Just had an estimate of $1500 to do belt, pump and pulleys!!! Looks like $200 in parts with labor at $100 an hour it work out be a 13 hour job. Kind of high isn't it? With the right tools and a lift it is a 4 hour job. I don't have a flat rate book. This message has been edited by padroo on 12-15-2016 at 07:06 AM
RPL POA Lifetime Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Rochester Hills, MI, USA Registered: Jul 2000 Admin Use	posted 12-15-2016 08:00 AM If you're going to replace the timing belt, here's a list of things that should be done at the same time: - timing belt - idler pulley - water pump - radiator hoses - thermostat - change antifreeze and remember to bleed the air - check the alternator pulley - serpentine and A/C belts The parts will be more but the labor should be about the same.
RDinTN POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Beautiful East Tennessee Registered: Oct 2016 Admin Use	posted 12-15-2016 09:25 AM quote: Originally posted by RPL: If you're going to replace the timing belt, here's a list of things that should be done at the same time: - timing belt - idler pulley - water pump - radiator hoses - thermostat - change antifreeze and remember to bleed the air - check the alternator pulley - serpentine and A/C belts The parts will be more but the labor should be about the same. I acquired all those parts from Rock Auto (http://www.rockauto.com/) & eBay. My trusted local independent shop charged $242.00 to install. I took along my Shop Manual for their reference, but I know they have Internet references that I neither know about nor have access to. RD
robin POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:St Thomas Ontario Canada Registered: Nov 2013 Admin Use	posted 12-15-2016 10:27 AM I did mine with the help of a mechanic friend . No lift. Buy the kit from rock auto. Puller needed for harmonic balancer. belt had 60 thousand on it at the time. new belt was pliable and dull. Old was hard and shiny with signs of wear. Just make sure timing belt is lined up most important part. Take it where ever you feel comfortable. It's not that difficult a timing belt to do. Would it break soon ????????? but better to just get it done .... http://www.prowleronline.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/005327.html This message has been edited by robin on 12-15-2016 at 01:59 PM
robin POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:St Thomas Ontario Canada Registered: Nov 2013 Admin Use	posted 12-15-2016 10:39 AM If you look at my picture you can see the water pump. I had a small leak. So it would drip down onto the timing belt. What affect this had over time I don't know .... But probably not a good thing.....
phil2237 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:PLACENTIA CALIFORNIA Registered: Feb 2005 Admin Use	posted 12-15-2016 05:00 PM It is about a 4 hour job. I have never bought parts from Rock Auto, and am not knocking them, but if you are doing a timing belt & water pump and pulleys, I would stick with top brand names such as Moog or Bosch. Make sure you remove the radiator for more access and you might want to have the radiator cleaned & boiled, after all some of these cars are now going on 19 years old. When you order the water pump, order the kit as it comes with the belt, pulleys & pump assembly as a package. Just make sure you ROTATE the engine BY HAND after installing the timing belt to make sure it is aligned correctly. ROTATE 3 or 4 complete revolutions and then recheck your timing marks. If you start the engine and it is not correct, you will damage the engine. JUST MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE CORRECT HARMONIC BALANCER PULLER AS MANY OTHER PULLERS WILL DAMAGE THE HARMONIC BALANCER. You can buy the Puller at Harbor Tools. And don't forget to install a new thermostat while you have the front of the engine cover off as its alot easier to get at with the cover off. Its not a tough job, just take your time. Most repair shops will charge about $1200 to $1600 to do the job which includes parts, so it might be worth it to do yourself. This message has been edited by phil2237 on 12-15-2016 at 05:10 PM
padroo POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Chesterton, IN, USA Registered: Dec 2010 Admin Use	posted 12-15-2016 07:54 PM Here is the correct puller. I know it is just a 3 jaw puller but it is the exact size to pull the harmonic balancer. I had a whole bunch of 3 jaw pullers and this is the only one that would fit. It didn't come off hard and I did remove the radiator because I was changing hoses and coolant and didn't want to damage the radiator. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002SRFN0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 This message has been edited by padroo on 12-15-2016 at 07:54 PM
Macs POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Virginia Beach, VA Registered: Jan 2013 Admin Use	posted 01-02-2017 07:25 PM I have no mechanical skills. I contacted a mechanic friend of mine who also owns a prowler and he told me to order all the parts. Reading the previous post I went on to Rock Auto site and they have so many kits. What kits do you recommend? I plan on replacing everything that was recommended.
RDinTN POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Beautiful East Tennessee Registered: Oct 2016 Admin Use	posted 01-02-2017 09:02 PM quote: Originally posted by Macs: I have no mechanical skills. I contacted a mechanic friend of mine who also owns a prowler and he told me to order all the parts. Reading the previous post I went on to Rock Auto site and they have so many kits. What kits do you recommend? I plan on replacing everything that was recommended. For my part, I ordered the following "kit" from Rock Auto: DAYCO WP295K1AS/ Includes: Water Pump, Timing Belt, Hydraulic Timing Belt Actuator, Camshaft Belt Tensioner Pulley, 2 Camshaft Seals, Crankshaft Seal, Pre-Assembly Seal Lubricant Water Pump Kit with Seals ($140.79). Everything looked good, so didn't bust it apart to use the (2) camshaft seals nor the crankshaft seal (your friend will know why). RD
phil2237 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:PLACENTIA CALIFORNIA Registered: Feb 2005 Admin Use	posted 01-03-2017 06:40 AM A few weeks ago , I was at our supplier, He had a hydraulic press that we could fit to test a timing belt with . I took my old timing belt over to him to test it. The belt looked new, was still very flexible and no teeth looked damaged. We put the belt on the machine, and it broke at 78 pounds of pressure. We then put a new timing belt on the machine, the new belt went all the way to 300 pounds which was the highest it would go on the machime , and it DID NOT BREAK THE BELT. My car has 19,000 miles on the belt. So apparently age does affect the strength of the belt. I also put my old A/C belt on and it broke at 195 pounds. Just in my opinion, after all these years, don't take a chance with an old belt as engine damage will occur should it fail with the exception of the 98s which are not contact engines
kriegsadmiral POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Illinois Registered: May 2014 Admin Use	posted 01-03-2017 08:41 AM My car is a 1999 with about 20,000 miles on it. I have had it for three years and have thought about replacement. Only problem is that two people owned the car before me and I have no way of knowing if either of them replaced it before I got the car. I assume not but once it is torn apart to do it is a little late to find out. I wish Chrysler could check in its system the maintenance history but they say they can't unless it is a recall issue. I asked when I did a complete fluid replacement last year and Dealer says they can only check service done at their own dealership not others around the country.
RDinTN POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Beautiful East Tennessee Registered: Oct 2016 Admin Use	posted 01-03-2017 09:13 AM quote: Originally posted by kriegsadmiral: My car is a 1999 with about 20,000 miles on it. I have had it for three years and have thought about replacement. Only problem is that two people owned the car before me and I have no way of knowing if either of them replaced it before I got the car. I assume not... Admiral, I think what the folks are saying is, it's a 'peace of mind' issue. For every used/ lease return vehicle I've bought (and that's all I've bought for 40+ years), I've refreshed it with maintenance like we're talking here. Did I ever waste money? No, to my way of thinking it was money well spent - an investment. Good luck. Remember, you might be driving the one the Smithsonian will want.
quincy POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Fairfield Glade, TN. USA Registered: May 2004 Admin Use	posted 01-03-2017 02:32 PM Very interesting feed back Phil2237. Sounds like a burst test was performed, and the old belt did not fair very well. This is good information. I'm wondering if RPL kept the old belts he has been collecting for the last several years and if this might be a good reason to test a few more to establish a statistical base line. One burst belt is not a conclusion....but several, maybe!. What is your opinion? quote: Originally posted by phil2237: A few weeks ago , I was at our supplier, He had a hydraulic press that we could fit to test a timing belt with . I took my old timing belt over to him to test it. The belt looked new, was still very flexible and no teeth looked damaged. We put the belt on the machine, and it broke at 78 pounds of pressure. We then put a new timing belt on the machine, the new belt went all the way to 300 pounds which was the highest it would go on the machime , and it DID NOT BREAK THE BELT. My car has 19,000 miles on the belt. So apparently age does affect the strength of the belt. I also put my old A/C belt on and it broke at 195 pounds. Just in my opinion, after all these years, don't take a chance with an old belt as engine damage will occur should it fail with the exception of the 98s which are not contact engines
phil2237 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:PLACENTIA CALIFORNIA Registered: Feb 2005 Admin Use	posted 01-03-2017 03:57 PM quote: Originally posted by quincy: Very interesting feed back Phil2237. Sounds like a burst test was performed, and the old belt did not fair very well. This is good information. I'm wondering if RPL kept the old belts he has been collecting for the last several years and if this might be a good reason to test a few more to establish a statistical base line. One burst belt is not a conclusion....but several, maybe!. What is your opinion? If anyone wants to send another belt to test, I would be glad to do it. Like I posted above, the old belt still looked new, but sure failed when pressure was applied. By the way, the machine we used is for making custom exhaust holders and as far as I know , there are no testing equipment for belts. But this machine seemed to prove age does matter. If anyone wants a belt tested, Private message me for my address
RPL POA Lifetime Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:Rochester Hills, MI, USA Registered: Jul 2000 Admin Use	posted 01-03-2017 03:59 PM Phil2237, I have a couple of old belts that I'd send you if your friend is will to test them. I'll share the data that I have on them. Let me know.
phil2237 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:PLACENTIA CALIFORNIA Registered: Feb 2005 Admin Use	posted 01-03-2017 04:00 PM quote: Originally posted by kriegsadmiral: My car is a 1999 with about 20,000 miles on it. I have had it for three years and have thought about replacement. Only problem is that two people owned the car before me and I have no way of knowing if either of them replaced it before I got the car. I assume not but once it is torn apart to do it is a little late to find out. I wish Chrysler could check in its system the maintenance history but they say they can't unless it is a recall issue. I asked when I did a complete fluid replacement last year and Dealer says they can only check service done at their own dealership not others around the country. Just remember , most people buy cars and dump them as soon as the warranty ends. (JMO), Replace the belt & pump assembly as its not worth the risk of engine damage
phil2237 POA Site Supporter Prowler Junkie From:PLACENTIA CALIFORNIA Registered: Feb 2005 Admin Use	posted 01-03-2017 04:05 PM quote: Originally posted by RPL: Phil2237, I have a couple of old belts that I'd send you if your friend is will to test them. I'll share the data that I have on them. Let me know. I sent you my address by PM, Please mark the belt if possible with the mileage so we can get an exact idea as to their life span. As soon as I receive the belts, I will test them the same day and post it here. I am very curious myself. As per the A/C belt, the old one broke at 195 pounds of pressure and the new one DID NOT BREAK all the way up to 300 pounds. The A/C belt was 7 years 8 months old and still looked to be in very good condition This message has been edited by phil2237 on 01-03-2017 at 04:09 PM

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