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Wayne Finch	.....this is further to TUIB (Larry's) post about the current auto offerings. What I don't understand about the you Americans lately, is all the complaining and griping about the outsourcing of jobs overseas and the enormous trade deficit that America has with the rest of the world. Then it seems like the same people doing all the griping are the same ones that will be first to buy a foreign car. I just don't get it. The auto industry is a huge industry for North America and if you want to help the US economy, you should be buying American. What happened to the ads that I used to see in the US back in the 80's like "Buy a foreign car, get a foreign job". Now is probably the time to revamp those if you want to help the US economy.
Dave Mills	Wayne: It is probably no longer politically correct to make those statements. Many of the foreign car companies now have plants in the U.S. which further blurs the line, and then you have Chrysler owned by Daimler...it is foreign or domestic? I still try to buy what used to be considered domestic automakers, but are they really?
tangled up in BLUE	Wayne, ....It isn't the overseas stuff that was on my mind.....locally, we had a Chrysler Plant, one of the oldest in existence that was sold last year to Metaldyne.....same people(if they wanted to stay for less $$$), same jobs, same everything, but wages were reduced by 60% with very little benefits.... ...the trend seems to be the selling off of parts plants to other manufacturers who can avoid UAW wages and all the benefits that the Big 3 were obligated to....DC can get the same product and none of the long term financial obligations to employees....currently the Big 3 spend 66% of their wage $$$ to support retired employees that produce nothing... ...the thinking is, in a few years almost all parts will be produced by manufacturers other than the Big 3, and the parts producers may even be obligated to install their parts on the production lines....example, the glass contractor supplies the people and tooling to install their product....tire/wheel manufacturers the same etc etc... ...it is all a result of rising retirement costs and rising health insurance....article in the Wall Street Journal last week(hey, I don't always read comic books ) or so about GM investigating the possibility of filing bankruptcy to avoid the financial burden of rising retirement and insurance costs.... ...a year or so ago, a large steel manufacturer did this....it cut the retirees checks from $3700. per month to $1300. per month....it was either do that or file bankruptcy.....it is called corporate survival... ...I believe in buying American although it is tricky...bought a new Sebring conv a few years ago....found out it was assembled in Mexico.... I currently own... 3 Vipers...made in Detroit 2 Prowlers...made in Detroit 3 Corvettes...made in Bowling Green, Ky. 1 Jeep...made in Toledo??? 1 Challenger...made in Detroit 1 GTO...not sure where it was produced, but I am sure it wasn't Taiwan ...times are a changin.... This message has been edited by tangled up in BLUE on 01-23-2005 at 01:25 PM
tangled up in BLUE	...our local UAW has an old sign on the wall above the parking lot... ....PARKING FOR GM, CHRYSLER OR FORD PRODUCTS ONLY... ..............now DC is German owned ???.... ...a year or so ago I was pointing out the idea....which is more correct to own...a Sebring conv. made in Mexico, and the $$$ go to Germany.........or a Subaru, Toyota, etc that is made in the USA and the money goes to Japan.....in this instance, the Toyota seems to be the best answer....... ....puzzling, even to an old dog like me
Dave Mills	2004 Pacifica..made in Canada 2003 Dakota....made in Warren, MI 1999 Prowler...made in Detroit 1975 Duster....made at Hamtramck 1966 Fury......made at Hamtramck 1951 Plymouth Cambridge...made in Detroit 1928 Pltmouth Model Q...made in Detroit
Wayne Finch	It is a little tricky with plants all over the world, however, you get the point. It is the same with Walmart. People complain that they are losing jobs overseas and then are first to want low low prices like Walmart. You can't have it both ways. While DC is clearly German for the time being, I believe its stock ownership is now mostly in the US. So.... Who knows
ALLEY CAT	Times have changed, no doubt. Volvo, Mazda, Jaguar, etc.,,owned by Ford. DC owns Mitsubishi. GM owns plants all over the world. You can cross over from Yuma, Az and see Ford and other manufacturing plants in Mexico going strong. Why? To pay $12 "per day" wages. WalMart is choking it's suppliers to sell to them for marginal profits, which forces those companies to cut wages and benefits to their workers. WalMart Super Centers are ruining the wage structures of the American grocery store chains. When they finally run out the competition, there prices and profits will continue to increase. Who shops there? I don't even want to get into that here on this thread. IMO, WalMart is snake venom to our U.S. economy. As to outsourcing jobs to Mexico, China and India,,,,,you get what you pay for! Also, I can't stand to talk to customer service telephone people [in India] who I can't understand their version of the English language. Its the end of the world,,,I tell ya,,,the end of the world This message has been edited by ALLEY CAT on 01-23-2005 at 05:57 PM
heynow14	I think it may be time to throw some (tea?) in the harbor and demand that manufactures make it here if they want to sell it here. In the 80's GM was all about "Buy American" now they left US. They're buying the plants in Mexico and China and saying that there growing markets. I'll bet it will not be long before them cars made in China (Buicks) start showing up here. Too bad for Buick City (Flint). The root cause of all this is Corporate Greed. It should be a law that the highest paid employee of a public company make no more than 25 times the lowest paid employee.~ JMO
Want one	My wife and I went to buy a toaster two weekends ago (why I went with, I don't know) she was looking for a stainless steel one to match the other appliances and bought a Toastmaster, well, got it home and it didn't work, I checked the bottom and low and behold, made in China. I said to her Toastmaster use to be made in the US, so take it back and we will look for another one made here. After going to four stores and checking every brand ( Cuisenart, Kitchen Aid, Krups, GE,etc..) We found all of them were made in China, too which I said no way, I've had it, it seems like everything is made in China. It's a sad day when in this great country known for manufacturing you cant even find a toaster made here ! We ended up finding a Duralit, made in England.
Wayne Finch	quote: Originally posted by heynow14: The root cause of all this is Corporate Greed. It should be a law that the highest paid employee of a public company make no more than 25 times the lowest paid employee.~ JMO People should get paid what they are worth to a company. Some people making $10/hr are not worth half that and some (not all) CEO's are worth multiples of what they get paid (and some are not). A guy at the top has many strategic decisions that can make or break a company and with it hundreds or thousands of employees. If a CEO can take a company that is worth $10 billion and turn it into something that is worth $50 billion, what is he worth? There is no right answer but it is likely a lot more than 25 guys putting out a half effort on the shop floor. To make it a little more personal, if a guy came along and said he could make you $10 million, but wanted half if he did, would you take him up on it?
ALLEY CAT	Question: "To make it a little more personal, if a guy came along and said he could make you $10 million, but wanted half if he did, would you take him up on it?" If it's my capital dollars standing up front for this guy to gamble with,,,HELL NO would I give him half. He might lose $10 million as well. If he knows how to make $10 million,,,why doesn't he do it with his money and keep it all??? Many [didn't say all] CEO's are given their jobs, having not earned it. I wouldn't say there should be a limit on his/her worth if he/she builds the companies assets [net worth] and creates more jobs for the future,,,,,,but, he/she is working for somebody else who put them into that position to create results. I've read of many CEO's and their chief officers bleeding the company assets dry and with it the retirement funds set aside for employee benefits. A life sentence in prison is too good for these individuals. JMO
Simonsez	I certainly understand all the comments above. My daughter works for Toyota in Southern Indiana. So the next time you see a Toyota truck in front of you. Think of it as USA made. I drive a PT Cruiser made in Mexico but wished it had been made here. Cannot always buy what you see and want and assume where it was made.
enduro	Well, I gotta admit... Alley Cat and I think alike on this issue (and it's kinda scarin' me). I believe that we're in for some real trouble in the coming years if we don't take a stand as an American community and see what we're doing to ourselves. Yes, this is now a global economy. Yes, products can be produced cheaper in other countries. Yes, the result of this is lower prices for these products on our store shelves. However, we need to start looking at the big picture here. We're digging ourselves into a hole, and "somebody" needs to take a stand. I'm "somebody".
YellowFever	I once posed the question to someone, "which car is built in America? A Mazda 626 or a Ford Crown Victoria?" Most folks would chose the Crown Vic and they were wrong. The Mazda was built at a plant here while th Crown Vic was built in Canada. Just because a company has an American name, doesn't mean it produces goods here. Likewise, just because of having a foreign name, doesn't mean it's not. Mercedes, BMW's, Toyota's, Nissan's, Honda's all have plants here and build cars/trucks in the USA. Even if an American company builds a car here, look at the parts in it. Probably most of the electronics come from the other side of the world. Where did the steel come from? Probably not the USA. What tires are on the car? Yokohama? Pirelli? Not exactly American companies. Rather then try to buy something because of a label, I always try to buy the best product for the money (as most folks do). That forces other companies to either build a superior product (to justify the higher cost) or get in line costwise.
CTProwler	2005 VCA Special Edition (Yellow Fever) SRT/10 Viper #22 0f 50-Detroit 2004 SRT/10 Red Viper--Detroit 2004 Nissan Titan-Supercrew Cab--Japan? 2002 Candy Red Prowler--Detroit 2001 Qvale Mangusta--Modena Italy--Ford Cobra Engine--Detroit? I bought each car + Truck because I liked them, it didn't enter my mind where they were built when I made the decision. I see everyone's points but why buy a Chevy if I don't like them. I'm only on this planet for so long, I've got more things to worry about then where something is made. I figure with all the food and beer I've consumed so far in my lifetime I'm giving big time to the U.S. economy ------------------ This message has been edited by CTProwler on 01-25-2005 at 06:41 PM
YellowFever	Just goes to show ya....... The new 2004 Titan, which was conceived, developed, styled and engineered primarily in North America, will be assembled at Nissan's new $1.43 billion manufacturing facility in Canton, Miss., with its Nissan Endurance V8 assembled on an all-new line at Nissan's advanced engine production facility in Decherd, Tenn Other then name, it's all American!
CTProwler	Yellow Fever--That makes me feel good. ------------------ This message has been edited by CTProwler on 01-25-2005 at 06:42 PM
lavka	My present work situation is filled with extreme irony when it comes to the subject of the "Outsourcing of America" and this is an issue I deal with almost daily. In the grand scheme I am simultaneously a perpetrator and a victim of outsourcing. Make no mistake, the ultimate reason for this trend is America's unwillingness (as a whole) to pay more for a product simply because it was "Made in America." We really are on the bleeding edge of the global economy and it will only get worse. I work at, yes I said "at" not "for" an electronics giant that is generally regarded as an American company. Nothing this company sells is made in America. Products include PC's, printers, digital cameras, flat screen TVs, etc. They have a hand in most all the latest digital gizmos and gadgets that Americans feel they "need" to survive. The division I work at sells over 1 million printers per month and every last one of them is made in China or Malaysia. When you call 1-800-technical support because you can't get their product to work, you're talking to a outsourced call center in India where the workers have been trained to "sound American." Like most people who pull into the parking lot each day to go to work, I am not an employee of the company. I am a contractor. Why? Because traditional employee benefits like paid vacation, sick leave, subsidized health insurance and retirement benefits are too expensive to keep this $80 billion revenue company in business. Interesting new categories get created like "W-2" contractor or "1099" contractor to get around having to hire actual employees. These positions have no paid vacation or sick leave, no health benefits, no retirement benefits other than 401K. If you miss work because you are sick or want to attend Aunt Edna's funeral, you lose pay plain and simple. And what do I do there each day? I am paid to coordinate the outsourcing of job functions from American facilities over to Singapore and China. Do I like it? Hell no, but I gotta eat. This message has been edited by lavka on 01-26-2005 at 02:31 PM
CJ	quote: you're talking to a outsourced call center in India where the workers have been trained to "sound American." Yeah, well, I've yet to talk to one that sounds "American" I was on a call with a center in India with regard to my router the other day and I could NOT understand much of what she was saying. I had to ask her to keep repeating what she was saying in order to figure out what it was she was saying. The thing that makes me mad, is when you have to do that because you can't understand them.........they get irritated with you!
Kariedan	Part of the problem is the cost of doing business in America. Attorneys sue for any and everything. Do other countries have the same problems. I am a silent partner in a business and the work comp rate is 30%. Do other countires have the same problems. etc. etc. Many American workers dont have the same pride of workmanship that the used too. And Unions had there place and time but do they still. We hear storys about people being told not to work to hard or fast by the unions who are only looking out for there own greed and not looking out for the company's. As Americans many of the problems we have created ourselfs.
Thunder	Kariedan.....How Dare you "Hit the Nail on the Head". We have the same problem in Canada.....if only we could learn to stick together....ah who am I kidding...