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reechee	By Alex Pareene (Salon.com) There is a sort of childish taunt that liberals use against proper libertarians sometimes, in which they humorously propose that the fire department be privatized, because the "invisible hand" of the market would be more efficient at putting out house fires. And then everyone has a laugh -- the liberals because they think they just scored a really great rhetorical point, and the libertarians because they are high. Meanwhile, out in Tennessee, a man's house burned down because he didn't pay the fire department. The homeowner, Gene Cranick, said he offered to pay whatever it would take for firefighters to put out the flames, but was told it was too late. They wouldn't do anything to stop his house from burning. Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. But the Cranicks did not pay. The mayor said if homeowners don't pay, they're out of luck. This fire went on for hours because garden hoses just wouldn't put it out. It wasn't until that fire spread to a neighbor's property, that anyone would respond. Turns out, the neighbor had paid the fee. [...] It was only when a neighbor's field caught fire, a neighbor who had paid the county fire service fee, that the department responded. Gene Cranick asked the fire chief to make an exception and save his home, the chief wouldn't. So some self-interested rational actor decided not to pay for fire protection -- an optional service -- and then his house burned down, because the firefighters obviously didn't want to open the firefighting program up to a bunch of free riders. * Continue reading Daniel Foster, The Corner's resident hip libertarian-leaning conservative, is rightly appalled by this entire story. He has no problem with opt-in government, of course! It's just that he has this crazy notion that the firefighters had a moral responsibility to stop a man's house from burning down, especially after they responded to his neighbor. And, come on, the guy offered to pay! So no moral hazard! A-ha, a reader responds. He "offered." But he is clearly a deadbeat, and a leech on society, and the firefighters were right to watch as everything he owned became ash. UPDATE: A reader writes: Yes, he offered to pay, while his house burned. I can’t prove what would have happened, but the FD would probably have had to sue him to gain full reimbursement. Maybe they need to start carrying pre-printed contracts for the homeowners to sign quickly and obligate themselves for the full cost plus a little profit. A man whose house is on fire will say anything to a guy with the means to put the fire out -- best not to trust him, unless you can get it in writing. I sometimes feel bad for smart, principled conservative bloggers, because the only people worse than their peers are their readers. ------------------ Manufacture or perish.
ALLEY CAT	I'm going to side with the fire department in this case,,,,if they don't want to pay that small of a fee for fire protection,,,let the place burn down. I don't feel sorry for the guy,,,,he saved $75 a year and probably felt good about it every year,,he played the odds and lost. Same holds true for the uninsured who drive cars, and wreck them. In Arizona, we have many home owners who live outside the city/town limits who have to pay a private fire department company (Rural Metro) for fire service. Here, many will not pay the fees for their service either, and Rural Metro might show up to a fire of one of these people, but they aren't in any hurry and surely won't risk their lives to save property or personal possessions. I don't blame them either! Too many 'something for nothings' out there,,,screw 'em! just my opinion..
ed monahan	Same as Health Care. The gov't will step in and fix it for them.
heynow14	Do you think they would have let his house burn down if he was trapped in it? Most rural areas assess a fee after responding to emergencies, including false alarms. I guess in Tenn. thats too complicated. ------------------
bjprowler	Maybe we should all just drop our auto insurance and wait until we have a wreck to get insurance coverage....Do you think the insurance companies would go for that?
bjprowler	quote: Originally posted by heynow14: Do you think they would have let his house burn down if he was trapped in it? Most rural areas assess a fee after responding to emergencies, including false alarms. I guess in Tenn. thats too complicated. JEEZE!!.....Fire departments, EMT's, police, etc. all have overhead and operating expenses regardless of whether or not they are called upon....The fees you are talking about are over and above what they receive from taxpayer support.. The solution is to not make it voluntary...If you live in the community you should be required to pay for those services....in advance.
BeWare	The guy took a gamble and lost. Seems to me that it is as simple as that. He gambled his house and yes possibly his life. $75.00 a year seems like a small price to pay. It was his personal choice and now he should be prepared to live with the consequences. I wonder if the guy had insurance on the house. And if he did will the insurance company cover his losses when they learn of his refusal to pay the Fire Department fee? This message has been edited by BeWare on 10-05-2010 at 10:45 AM
ed monahan	They just showed an interview with the woman who owned the house trailer. She said she "forgot" to pay it and that the folks around there know her and know she would pay. Then she said, "if they waived it last year, why couldn't they waive it this year?" I wonder which party she votes for !!!! hahahahahahahaha Why pay when you can get by without paying it !!!! I wonder how many have paid up in the past few days.
heynow14	quote: Originally posted by bjprowler: JEEZE!!.....Fire departments, EMT's, police, etc. all have overhead and operating expenses regardless of whether or not they are called upon....The fees you are talking about are over and above what they receive from taxpayer support.. The solution is to not make it voluntary...If you live in the community you should be required to pay for those services....in advance. Wow, so you support increased taxes/fees. I guess your one of those cut taxes and increase fees republicans. ------------------
bjprowler	Now you're catching on......The role of government should be to provide essential public services with those expenses being shared equally. The key words here are "essential" and "shared equally". This message has been edited by bjprowler on 10-05-2010 at 10:49 PM
heynow14	Glad to hear you favor more taxes. Sad day in America when the FD watches a persons house burn down. So much for morality in our Christian nation. ------------------
blackcat	Kind of like if you had a car accident and when the police arrive you decide to pay for insurance........ Doesn't work that way. I'd be surprised if he had insurance on his home that they would pay. It was his fault by not paying the fee......
heynow14	When I call an ambulance they bill me later. Same could have been done in this case. To call yourself a fireman and watch someones house burn to the ground is morally wrong. It would have been a shame if a kid was trapped inside that they didn't know about. Comes a point when you have to do whats right and not say screw you over $75. But some people just don't get it. ------------------
BeWare	From the liberal guide to debating a conservative. Lib Tip # 3: Social Justice Trumps Logic: Argue every issue from a “Social Justice” or “Moral” high-ground. The Conservative will attempt to show that your ideas are unworkable, unsustainable or downright illogical. Don’t worry about any of that. Just stay on message by arguing from the moral, social justice perspective Lib Tip # 9: Government is Good: Insist that a massive expansion of government is a good thing. Assert that it is our patriotic duty to pay ever more in taxes so that a centralized government comprised of east and west coast Liberal elites can decide what is best for the unwashed masses, since it would be sheer lunacy to allow individuals the right to make decisions for themselves.
ed monahan	quote: Originally posted by heynow14: When I call an ambulance they bill me later. Same could have been done in this case. To call yourself a fireman and watch someones house burn to the ground is morally wrong. It would have been a shame if a kid was trapped inside that they didn't know about. Comes a point when you have to do whats right and not say screw you over $75. But some people just don't get it. comes a point when you have to "man up" and pay your own bills and not expect the rest of the neighborhood to raise you. They saved the neighbors house, but he was probably a Republican and paid the fee when he got the bill. As the woman homeowner said, right on camera, "If they waived the fee last year, why couldn't they waive it this year, too". Vote Democrat, they will pay all your bills. The recession is over, change we can believe in, as long as the telepromter works and they don't have a flag pass by.
ALLEY CAT	Damn fine rebuttal Ed,,,,,I couldn't even try to top that one Can hardly wait for the 'spin master' to challenge this one.....
heynow14	Question is; if you were a fireman and it was your father/mother/brother/sister/son/daughter(s) house, and they didn't pay, would you have put it out? Yes or No? I'm sure you guys can't/won't answer that. ------------------
ALLEY CAT	quote: Originally posted by heynow14: Question is; if you were a fireman and it was your father/mother/brother/sister/son/daughter(s) house, and they didn't pay, would you have put it out? Yes or No? I'm sure you guys can't/won't answer that. As I expected, great 'spin' by the master! What kind of hypothetical question is that? I see it took you three hours on the job tonight, to come up with that thought. I'm disappointed in you now,,,,you are starting to weaken, lol. IF I was a fireman on the responding unit, then yes, I would put the water to it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,then proceed to totally pay back the 'entire' cost of the units/firemen's time in full, for the service. Afterwards,,,,,I'd personally put a shoe in the butt of: my father/mother/brother/sister/son/daughter(s) for being so ignorant and cheap as not to pay the yearly fee!
ed monahan	I have 3 sons that are firefighters. I would think any relative of any firefighter would be smart enough to pay up to support their relative but then again, I am not a democrat so I am assuming folks are smart. Not too smart on my part, I guess. The best thing is to whine about it later and hope all the feel-good do-gooders will bail you out, same as always.
ALLEY CAT	quote: Originally posted by heynow14: I'm sure you guys can't/won't answer that. Well Robert,,,we answered you. You said we can't/won't! Can you now 'spin' this situation to a poor person, who needs government assistance to pay their responsibilities to maintain their property? Like the lady in Florida, who was so happy BHO was elected, and thought she wouldn't have to make her house payment any longer, because BHO would take care of her IMO,,you are so far out of touch with mainstream America, that I find it difficult to even answer your twisted (spin) questions any longer. Help us see the liberal way, lol.
BeWare	quote: Originally posted by ALLEY CAT: [B]IF I was a fireman on the responding unit, then yes, I would put the water to it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,then proceed to totally pay back the 'entire' cost of the units/firemen's time in full, for the service. Afterwards,,,,,I'd personally put a shoe in the butt of: my father/mother/brother/sister/son/daughter(s) for being so ignorant and cheap as not to pay the yearly fee! [/B] Yes, If I could I would attempt to put the fire out but I too would make Damn sure the Fire Department was reimbursed. But then people normally make allowances for family that you would not make to a stranger. For example if I worked in a repair shop and a relative needed something repaired. I would make the repairs for them with parts at cost and I would perform the labor for free. That is, if my boss allowed that. Likewise as a firefighter I would also be at the mercy of the City and/or the Fire Chief to allow myself and the other fire fighters to use the equipment to put out the fire for that relative. It can't be done by one person and not without the proper equipment. Lib Tip # 3: Social Justice Trumps Logic: Argue every issue from a “Social Justice” or “Moral” high-ground. The Conservative will attempt to show that your ideas are unworkable, unsustainable or downright illogical. Don’t worry about any of that. Just stay on message by arguing from the moral, social justice perspective This message has been edited by BeWare on 10-07-2010 at 11:27 PM
idive	Spin question for Robert: If you were the neighbor, and the house next door to you caught fire, and you knew the owner was a Democrat and didn't pay his fire fee, and your cousin's brother's nephew's son's uncle's wife was the responding firefighter, would you step up and be neighborly and pay the fee for him when it was due and ask your cousin's brother's nephew's son's uncle's wife to put the fire out even tho you paid the fire fee for your neighbor?
heynow14	Sounds like you all would have put out the fire. That's the correct answer. Too bad they don't see it that way in Tenn. or on Faux News. Yes A/C I too would expect the owner to pay the full cost after the fire was put out. Idive, I expect the fire to be put out. Where's the spin in that? Which is alot better than saying "He got what he deserved", "Let the place burn down", "He gambled and lost". ------------------