posted 09-10-2002 07:56 PM                  

The last couple of nights, I have been in the garage just getting to know the car, and looking at some of the problem areas that other members have reported, including the ripped tops. After experimenting for a while, I have a suspicion as to the cause of the "tears" that is slightly different that the conclusions I have seen posted here. Since this seems to be such a "hot button" topic, it might be productive for some of the leading members of this group to take a look at their cars and see if my observations apply to any car other than my own.

I found that if I followed the top up/top down procedure in the owner's manual EXACTLY, there was always a generous "finger width" or more of clearance between the L-shaped frame stop and the fabric top. I couldn't see any real interference if the procedures were followed. Nor could I see any real interference from the frame stop when the top is fully retracted and resting in the trunk.

HOWEVER, after playing around with the top in various positions, I found that if one IGNORED the steps and procedures in the manual (such as not lifting the rear portion all the way up before starting to retract the front portion), it is possible to get the top and frame into a configuration and relationship with each other where not only is there NO clearance between the frame stop and the fabric top, but the fabric is actually stretched under EXTREME tension (at least on my car) across the suspected frame stop.

On at least two occasions while I was screwing around with this, I managed to get the top stretched across the stop so tightly that I am certain that if I had continued to manipulate the top, the frame stop would have damaged the top, at exactly the location where so many members are seeing damage, i.e., about 2 inches to the rear of the window.

What is interesting to me is that I don't think the damage is being caused by friction (rubbing of the fabric against the frame stop) or by tearing from a sharp corner of the L-stop. The fact that some members suffered this damage after only a couple of top "cycles" seems to also rule out friction over time as the culprit. Therefore, I don't know that covering the frame stop with tubing, etc., is the correct approach based on what I noticed.

Instead, I think that the mechanism for the damage is a "bursting" of the top fabric caused by the tension and pressure resulting from incorrect operation of the top (and God, am I afraid to suggest THAT to this group!!!). I think that explains how this damage can occur after only one or two cycles, and also how some members have an actual "tear" through the fabric, where others have said that it looked more like a couple of the fabric threads had been "pulled". Rather than a tear, I think the stress from the tension caused by incorrect positioning or manipulation of the top actually "bursts" the top fabric. Depending on the amount of tension and stress, either only a couple of threads burst, or there is an "L"-shaped tear where the stress relief follows the natural weave of the fabric in both directions.

Now, I can't believe that as a 2-week owner, I have figured out the exact answer to one of the most troublesome questions in these posts, and I'm certainly not smart enough to come up with what the right "fix" should be if I am correct, but some of the smarter, more technically-inclined members may be able to devise something to help. Of course, If I am right, then the issue really isn't a warranty matter, unfortunately.

I would really appreciate hearing what other members observe when they take a look at this idea - it may just be the way the top on my particular car fits, but I think its at least worth taking a look at.

Hope this information is helpful in solving this problem.

Now, I have a request for any SoCal members: I live in Palos Verdes, and I can't find a dealership anywhere nearby that has a factory-certified Prowler tech on staff. Many had them a while back, but it seems that they have all moved on. If anyone can give me a referral to a good, qualified dealer with a real tech on staff, I'd appreciate it.

Every dealer I talked to was quick to tell me that they could work on the Prowler because "they can work on any DC product", but after reading some of the posts, I am not comfortable letting anyone who isn't factory trained in the nuances of these cars even TOUCH the thing. A couple of service managers agreed with me, telling me not to even let the local yokels at the neighborhood dealership try to put the thing on the hoist for fear of damage in the lifting alone.

Anybody have any comments as to letting a non-certified dealer mechanic wrenching on their cars???

Sorry this post is so long, but I also want to thank all of the long-term members and frequent posters for all of their advice and suggestions. There's a lot to learn about these cars, and the info from this board certainly made me a smarter buyer, and a much more aware owner.

If there is anything of value to anyone in this post, I am more than happy to have given something back to the group!!!

posted 09-10-2002 08:16 PM                  

My feeling is that you are 100% correct in your diagnosis. many people are afraid to post their observations online for fear that no matter how correct they may be, there is always someone who will dispute the facts and make an issue of the post. I have owned two Prowlers for a total of over 91,000 happy prowlin' miles and have never once damaged either my top or the latches. My suspicion has always been that people are not reading their owners manual or are not following the directions printed in it. Thanks for confirming my thoughts. Let the flames begin.

For service contact Ontario Chrysler and ask for Kirk Irvine the Service Manager at 909-390-9898 Tell him Larry Lord told you to call. John Shakarian is the Prowler Tech and he regularly services over twenty of our SoCal Prowlers. You will not find a better service department.

posted 09-10-2002 08:18 PM                  

Congrats on your Prowler and welcome to the POA...

Now, I'll have to go out and experiment with your observations... I haven't looked at it that closely... Maybe we need a video of how to put the top up & down...

posted 09-10-2002 08:39 PM                  

I will have to take a look based on your post.

It would have taken me at least 2 hours to type all that in!

posted 09-10-2002 09:10 PM                  

TKFischer, I bought my car from Bankston, about whom you have said nice things in prior posts. I dealt with the manager, Jim Hawes, who was great. I wish I could keep dealing with them!!! I did mention your name as a satisfied customer. That might be good for a free cup of coffee on your next visit...

posted 09-10-2002 09:45 PM                  

Welcome, WELcome, WELCOME!!!

Approaching a problem in a structured, analytical manner - I don't know that I can stand the competition.

First off, get a service manual. Everything you ask about follows that.

Yes, non-dealers can service the car. I had a non-EMT shop work on my tires (the tech had been trained). I had a local shop do the alignment (they even had to modify the clamp-on units to do it). The core of the car is standard Chrysler mechanicals, the people working on it just need to respect it. I'd much rather have a Viper tech who has never touched a Prowler work on it rather than a random Plymouth/Chrysler tech. The key is, YOU NEED TO KNOW THE CAR.

Unfortunately, I hear the 99 service manual is out of print. Try posting in Classified or "prowl" around Ebay.

Ask anything. I'm betting we'll get more answers from you than questions.

-GRROWL

posted 09-10-2002 09:56 PM                  

I will not disbute your observations and am glad you spent the time to do so. One of our local owners had a "L" shaped tear in their top over a year ago, and out of warranty by one month. DC said no dice on a free fix. Two of us spent 45 minutes putting the top up and down, and finally found the small "L" shaped spot that matched the top tear exactly. The rub was in the folding process, not either fully up or fully down. I posted my findings with little interest from the owner's communitiy. I provide our fix solution (as we see it) to any newcomers to our group. If others aren't concerned, well, we tried. As time allows, I'll check out your findings. I'll once again say thanks for your post and appreciate the information you have gathered. We all need to work together to explain problems and possible fixes,,,,,,,glad to have you aboard the website!

ENJOY THE RIDE

------------------


Call 911 - there is a Prowler in my garage....
3.5 power packed POA hours daily, always with rock solid analysis of all the hot topics!

posted 09-10-2002 10:07 PM                  

In response to everyone's nice comments, I almost certainly represent the limits of mechanical ignorance and ineptitude within this group.

posted 09-11-2002 12:03 AM                  

quote:

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Originally posted by Dead End Don:

In response to everyone's nice comments, I almost certainly represent the limits of mechanical ignorance and ineptitude within this group.

---

Don - don't short change yourself,,,,,,,Ed is like carrying a boatload of yak crap,,,,,but we love him

posted 09-11-2002 10:22 AM                    

While I appreciate your post, I have now owned THREE prowlers and have not had this issue with any of them (including this one) till about 2 weeks ago.

I find it hard to believe that I have been putting the top up and down hundreds of times on three cars, supposedly withouth knowing how to properly do it, and not suffer any damage till now. All three cars should have exhibited the same amount of damage or worse.

On the other hand, if I did know how to properly put the top down then what would be the cause of this?

Also, I have not owned any car that would require you to read a chapter on how to raise or lower a top. I think it is safe to say most people won't read it. And if the top is that complicated that it requires you to read a chapter to understand how to raise or lower the top, then that is a design flaw with the manufacturer, not the fault of the owner.

To all- If the raising and lowering of the Prowler top is so precise, how many of you were shown the exact way to do it by the dealership? With my three Prowlers, I wasn't shown a thing.

FYI- I have also owned about 15 different convertibles over the last 20 years ahd have not had this be an issue with any of them excpet this prowler.

------------------
Trey
"Who are you calling chicken? I said I'm YELLOW"

posted 09-11-2002 12:05 PM                    

quote:

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Originally posted by CJ:
Well........over my lifetime, I have come to realize that I usually can't count on other people to do their "jobs". So, I take responsibility for myself. I'd worked for quite some time with a Prowler, rode in one, but had never had the opportunity to actually drive one. As soon as I was able to get mine home, reading the Owners Maual was the first thing I did to familiarize myself with the car!

---

I know the feeling and I too have read the entire owners manual but, how many people don't? How many people have read their entire VCR or DVD or stereo manuals? The point is, alot of people don't and unless it is something as complicated as flying the shuttle or an F-16, they shouldn't have to.

My thing is that I have followed the letter of law on putting the tops up and down on all three prowlers (how many actually use those straps?). Never had a single problem with any tearing till now. Never had a problem with this car till the last time.

The service manager said sometimes things you carry in the trunk might scratch it. I informed him I have NEVER carried anything in the trunk (is that really what they think it is??)

posted 09-11-2002 12:20 PM                  

Is this the little "L" shaped frame stop...

I put a white rubber tip over it in one picture...

posted 09-11-2002 01:42 PM                  

quote:

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Originally posted by YellowFever:
My thing is that I have followed the letter of law on putting the tops up and down on all three prowlers (how many actually use those straps?). Never had a single problem with any tearing till now. Never had a problem with this car till the last time.

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I do! Every time! The owners manual told me to.

posted 09-11-2002 01:50 PM                  

I think there should be a read only topic where we submit tech and car care ideas for approval and when they are approved by 20 members then the adminstrator puts it in the read only topic heading.

This way newbies can get good ideas about caring for their cat with out having to repeat questions all the time and we can reference people back too it as well. ("yes joe, go to 3.2 in the read only tech area and you will probably find the answer you are looking for.)

This is done on an R1 board i belong too and it is extremely helpful. it is done for a variety of things such as product approval as well. for instance if 20 people agree Calarni tranny cooler covers are a good purchase then it would be mentioned as well.

Thanks to the first person to atleast post the correct procedures and sorry if this was already done...but then again that just proves my point on having a read only tech site.

jason

posted 09-11-2002 02:24 PM                  

If the members with damage are positive they never erred in operating the top, then my theory must be wrong. But I can see someone like myself, especially after I've had the car for awhile, being less aware or conscientious in remembering or following the steps exactly. I can certainly see myself forgetting, and trying to retract the front first, etc. And based on the tension I observed in the top fabric, I know it wouldn't take more than one "goof" to pop a hole.

Given that the top probably fits a little differently on each car, it may be that there is not a single cause for this problem, but that there may be multiple factors and different explanations that just happen to coincide and cause the same damage.

posted 09-11-2002 04:38 PM                  

However, I was only trying to make a case in point that this is just a good example of why everyone should!

And yes..........I use the straps EVERY time and all the time the top is down. I make sure the straps are keeping the top secure. With as much movement and bouncing with these cars........if the top is not secured, it could be shifting inside the trunk and who knows what might be rubbing against what!?