quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cat 01:
But what Pete did wrong was when he was a coach and AFTER he was a player. I say let him into the hall of fame but not back into baseball.

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Why would they care AFTER he was out of the game. I seem to remember it that he was betting against his team WHILE a player. AS far as being a coach, isn't that the guy who decides who bats, etc.?? Seems like he could easily throw a game or two then.

Had he commited murder would you still want him int the HOF?
If not, where is that fuzzy grey line then? Cheating/throwing games O.K., murder NOT?

He's a BUM, don't glorify him!!!!!

posted 12-13-2002 11:09 AM         

YF - you talk about where do you draw the line between Murder and gambling? Where DO you draw the line? Gambling, DUI, spuse abuse, shoving a member of the press, cussing an umpire, spitting on the sidewalk? What about Babe Ruth's antics. Do you think there might be a womanizer or two alreadty there? How about temper. I wonder how many HOF members may have had a bad temper? Everyone will want the line drawn somewhere different.

You mention things aren't black & white anymore and then in the same post try to make them gray by adding murder, oral sex and bad high school grades to the mix. Keep them black & white - the Hall of Fame is for extraordinary play on the field. That's where my line is drawn on this subject. Keep him out until he is dead if you want, but sooner or later, his name deserves to be there.

JMO

quote:

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Originally posted by Marty Usher:
Pete Rose belongs in The Baseball Hall of Fame. Keeping him out of baseball during his lifetime for gambling may be debated but the bottom line he is the greatest hitter to ever PLAY the game.

So what? There is more to life then hitting a ball. He knew the rules and broke them. Pretty simple.

YF - you talk about where do you draw the line between Murder and gambling?

Never said I drew a line. I was saying, for those that think cheating and gambling are o.k. and he should be in, where do THEY draw the line. In my book, they are the same for charlie hustler. He broke them, so he doesn't get in.

Where DO you draw the line? Gambling, DUI, spuse abuse, shoving a member of the press, cussing an umpire, spitting on the sidewalk?

These guys are held up as role models to our youth. What message do you want to give them? You break the rules, you cheat, you lie, you get rewarded???

What about Babe Ruth's antics.

The candy bar?

Do you think there might be a womanizer or two alreadty there? How about temper.

And since some people do illegal drugs we should just legalize the whole shooting match?

I wonder how many HOF members may have had a bad temper? Although I wouldn't give it a thumbs up, a bad temper wouldn't throw the game. Gambling could.

Everyone will want the line drawn somewhere different.

There in lies the problem. To clinton oral sex is not sex, although by definition.....Should OJ be in football's hall of fame? He supposedly was a great player and only killed two people.

You mention things aren't black & white anymore and then in the same post try to make them gray by adding murder, oral sex and bad high school grades to the mix.

NO, pointing out that to different people their idea of what is wrong is at a different level. To me, they are all wrong.

Keep them black & white - the Hall of Fame is for extraordinary play on the field.
Exactly and he cheated and gambled on the field so the bum is outta here. If you cheated on a test but, got an extrodinary grade, should you be allowed to keep it? Same-same.

JMO

And your opinion is taken, I just have a different, more cut and dried approach. It really doesn't matter though as any of our votes don't count on the subject.

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posted 12-13-2002 01:04 PM         

But there is ONE THING that drives me nuts...Why do we uphold athletes as role models?!?!

WHEN THE HELL IS SOCIETY GOING TO RECOGNIZE TEACHERS, DOCTORS, AND HUMANITARIANS AS ROLE MODELS?!?

posted 12-13-2002 02:44 PM         

Hall of Fame induction should be for his play on the field, not his actions as manager or elsewhere. I do not disagree with banning him from baseball for his lifetime, but content his play merits induction.

As far as drawing the line, belief that cheating and gambling are ok and holding sports figures up as role models goes, I don't think gambling on a sport in which you may be able to have an input on the outcome of the game is right. I don't think cheating in sports is admirable either, who does? I even agree that as BT161 pointed out, there are many others that I would like to see held up as role models for our youth. I do think Pete Rose has paid a price for his "breaking the rules" (or however you phrased it) He has been banned from baseball for life. WE should point out to our kids he did something he shouldn't have and paid a consequence for his actions. His being inducted in the HOF is not rewarding his gambling, it is acknowledging his play on the field. He didn't "cheat" when he was up at bat or sliding head first into third base.

I'll ignore your candy bar comment on Babe Ruth but wholeheartedly agree what we think really won't have a bearing on what happens with Pete Rose.

posted 12-13-2002 05:15 PM         

I know we are embarrassed about he Panthers here, but we see hope and are supportive of the Richardsons (owners) even though we've had problems with players-i.e. Kerry Collins (multiple DUIs, quitting), Rae Carruth (murdering his pregnant stripper girlfriend), Fred Lane (murdered by his wife after beating her and on a positive note we did get to the NFC Championship game 6 years ago.

Watch out for a local kid from here in Greensboro who is freshman playing for the U. Cincy Bearcats. I've seen this kid come up thru AAU ball and all and he has the talent, but has a thug personally and could cause Huggins problems. Hope not, but the potential is there. Lots of area schools loved his talent, but were scared of his academics and atitude.

posted 12-14-2002 07:22 AM         

quote:

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Originally posted by ed monahan:
Baby Ruth candy bar was named after some famous persons daughter, Ruth, not Babe Ruth. I can't remember who the famous person was but it was not Babe Ruth.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marty Usher:
He didn't "cheat" when he was up at bat or sliding head first into third base.

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How do we know that? He suddenly discovered gambling when he was 50 and a manager?

I'll bet (pardon the pun) that he had been gambling for years before he got caught. And for the manager or coach to bet against his team, to me, is even worse then betting on them. It's difficult to try to win any game but, fairly easy to throw one and since he was in a position to pick who plays or sits on the bench, well, you decide......

posted 12-14-2002 04:37 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by YellowFever:
How do we know that? He suddenly discovered gambling when he was 50 and a manager?

I'll bet (pardon the pun) that he had been gambling for years before he got caught. And for the manager or coach to bet against his team, to me, is even worse then betting on them. It's difficult to try to win any game but, fairly easy to throw one and since he was in a position to pick who plays or sits on the bench, well, you decide......

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I have never read anywhere that he was accused of gambling on baseball while he was playing. Do you have a source to show otherwise? Yes he did gamble in those days, I believe horse racing was his game of choice.

Your theory that you bet he was gambling on baseball while he was still a player is pure speculation on your part. Also; no one, even in the report submitted in 1989, has any evidence that Rose bet against the Reds. He bet on baseball, he bet on games the Reds played, but no one has proved he bet against the Reds.

Did he break the rules - certainly he bet on baseball while he was a manager. Did he suffer a consequence for his actions? Yes - he has been banned from baseball since 1989.

quote:

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Originally posted by Marty Usher:
I have never read anywhere that he was accused of gambling on baseball while he was playing. Do you have a source to show otherwise? Yes he did gamble in those days, I believe horse racing was his game of choice.

Your theory that you bet he was gambling on baseball while he was still a player is pure speculation on your part.

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I guess I could retort, "Do you have a source that he wasn't?" Truth is neither of us knows but, he did as a manager, so why not as a player too? I'm sure he didn't discover betting as a manager.

What really gripes me most about this is that I have seen rose on tv over the years 3-4 times with him whining about how great a player he was and that being out of baseball is punishment enough and they shouldn't do this to him. They didn't do anything to him. He did it to himself and to this day, he still doesn't get it.

He made his own bed, no one forced him to bet, he knew the outcome if he ever got caught, yet he did it anyway. Now he wants a different punishment. Ya do the crime, ya do the time. Case closed!

quote:

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Originally posted by pauley:
he did the time and and his play was fine ...

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So then people let out of prisons should have the ability to vote and run for office cause they did the time? The should also be able to buy a handgun legitimately too?

This is exactly the shades of grey versus black and white I am talking about. He was a great player so cut him some slack. Why? Should we put or morals aside because this bum can hit a ball?

Where does one draw the line (or do they)? If he murdered someone, should they still let him in cause he was so good a ball player? After 8 years of "character doesn't matter" and oral sex is not really sex and, my favorite, it all depends on what "is" is, I would have thought we would have gotten past this type of thinking.

There was a show on one of the sports channels last night about rose. The bookey where he placed all his bets said rose bet almost exclusively on the Reds.

I personally don't care how fast he can throw the ball or how well he can hit the ball, for all his whining on the show, he blew his chance and apparently he still doesn't get it.

Folks, we are not talking about a pre-schooler here that doesn't know right from wrong. We are talking about a man that was either in his late 30's or 40's, knew he'd be screwed if he was betting and got caught, yet did it anyway. Repeatedly! For that, he now wants a free pass and whines about how great a ball player he was.

The punishment for his actions were banishment from baseball for life and no chance for the hall of fame. You do the crime, you do the time. After you get caught, you don't try to change the punishment because you got caught.

posted 12-29-2002 06:34 PM         

Should the actions of an athlete away from the playing field shadow his/her accomplishments on the field? For Pete Rose, the most prolific hitter in all of baseball history, the question remains. Players in the Hall of Fame all have their own unique achievements that got them inducted into the Hall. As a baseball player, Pete Rose accumulated an all-time best 4,256 hits during his career, which no one has been able to match in baseball history. Also, he is the rightful owner of several other unmatched feats. To those unfamiliar with Pete Rose, he is still not a member of the Baseball Hall of Fame since retiring from baseball in 1986. However, this story dictates more than just a player's quest to enter the baseball shrine. Rose began to stir much of the baseball world's attention to himself through his actions off the field. After his years as a player for the Cincinnati Reds, Rose began his career as the Reds' manager. During his managing years, Rose was known for being a gambler and a questionable parent. After much investigation by baseball officials, Rose was found to have been illegally gambling on different sports, including his own team and baseball. As a result, baseball officials placed a lifetime banishment on Pete Rose, which, in effect voided his eligibility for the Hall of Fame.

Pete Rose's accomplishments in the game have gone unmatched by many of the other players in the Hall of Fame. Statistically, Pete Rose has amassed Hall of Fame numbers. After 24 seasons in Major League Baseball, Rose holds the most career hits, games played, and ten other achievements. Using Pete Rose as an example, baseball attempted to show the public what a Hall-of-Famer shouldn't be. Baseball exposed Pete Rose's faults to those that believed in him and to the public, in general.

Some of the greatest players in the Hall of Fame do not have the cleanest reputations either. In a similar situation Bowie Kuhn, a past commissioner of baseball, suspended Hall of Fame legends Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays for their connections to certain public figures in casinos, which were later overthrown after six years. If ethics is preventing Pete Rose from being admitted into the Hall of Fame, then what happens to those players with criminal records, drug scandals, or illegitimate children with different women? Ty Cobb, the player Pete Rose was chasing to become the all-time hits leader, killed a man and admitted to it. Of all players in history to have troubled times, Babe Ruth, arguably one of the greatest players to play the game, if not the greatest, had a reputation for being somewhat flirtatious towards women and an alcoholic. Certainly, there are a number of past and present players with controversial pasts, but their fate in the Hall of Fame has been or will be secured due to their contributions to the game.

While Rose?s dedication and hunger to succeed in the game of baseball were unquestionable, his actions outside the playing fields are still a mystery. Ten years ago, Pete Rose was banned from baseball on the grounds that the best hitter in baseball placed bets on the game of baseball itself. This ban resulted in Rose losing his opportunity to be inducted into the Hall of Fame, which has fueled the debate over Rose's ineligibility. If the Hall of Fame is a display of above average showmanship and merit, just how much of each is weighed into the decision making process? There is no doubt that Pete Rose left his mark on baseball with numerous accomplishments, but his gambling activities also left its own mark on the game, fueling one of the greatest sports controversies. Achievements are recognized for the effort and commitment placed into them, but morality also holds an equal share in the hearts of those attempting to recognize such achievements. Pete Rose will always be a baseball icon, but definitely not an icon to live by.

posted 12-29-2002 06:35 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by YellowFever:

The bookey (sic) where he placed all his bets said rose bet almost exclusively on the Reds.

MOST Bookies would not lie!!!

for all his whining on the show,

NEVER EVER heard Pete whine. EVER

The punishment for his actions were banishment from baseball for life and no chance for the hall of fame. You do the crime, you do the time. After you get caught, you don't try to change the punishment because you got caught.

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The last paragraph is not even close to the truth. The initial punishment stated no statements or admissions would be made about whether or not he bet on baseball and he could apply for re-instatement in ?? years. The Commissioner violated that the next day.
The HOF changed the rule AFTER he was suspended to affect him and only him.
As Yogi said, "You could look it up"
but why let facts screw up a good story.