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Overrated 3.5L Motor (Page 2)
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ProwlerOnline, Plymouth/Chrysler Prowler Discussion Forum
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Overrated 3.5L Motor (Page 2)
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| This topic is 2 pages long: 1 2 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Tires, Rims Discusssion |
| Author | Topic: Overrated 3.5L Motor |
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red2k300m unregistered Posts: 6862 |
posted 11-23-2002 01:57 AM
300m Board Intrepid Board I started the two above threads after buying a 300m and being disappointed in the performance. I could tell from driving the car there was no way the motor made 253hp. I did some research on the net and discovered that the 300m was putting down only 160-170hp to the wheels. That equates to over a 30% driveline loss assuming the engine made 253hp. Everybody's answer was that the tranny was inefficient. Well I don't buy that. My thinking was that heat(friction) is the main enemy of an automatic transmission. If the transmission accounts for the extra 10% in drivetrain loss, which would equate to 25hp not making to the wheels. I am not sure where it could go, other than being being lost in friction which is given off as heat. I'm not sure how much heat 25hp would equate to, but I couldn't seeing a tranny handling it with out an external cooler. The prowler seems to be putting a little more power to the ground with the same transmission. Has anyone here done an engine dyno on the 3.5L?
This message has been edited by red2k300m on 11-24-2002 at 06:05 PM |
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WildCat Prowler Junkie Posts: 6862 |
posted 11-23-2002 06:24 AM
quote: Sorry to heard you are disappointed in your 300. The 3 cars do use the same engine and yes the 300 & Prowler are reated at 253 on premium and the Intrepid at 240 regular unleaded gas. I have not dyno'ed my car but others have for a base line on mods and somewhere close to 170 is about were most come in at in stock form. Yes the question on the loss has been discussed. Go to the top of page and do a search on the subject and you will get all the past comments. What do you expect out of the car. Several people say the car is slow, why didn't they use a V8 and on and on. What I want to know is what people are using for a reference? I have had some very QUICK cars and some Fast cars, there is a difference. HP #'s have always been a game with the manufacturers. Yes, we all remember the underrated numbers from the late `60's and very early `70's (OK maybe we all don't remember) Hemi's @425, 340's @275, 427@390, this was done to satisfy the insurance companies. I have ridden in 2 different 300 M's and thought they ran very well. I think my all stock (drivetrain)Prowler runs well. Each car will perform different. Take you battery cable off let it sit for 10~15 Minutes, reconnect with AC turned on and go run the He** out of it ands see it it changes how it runs. If you broke it in as an old lady would then it thinks there is an old lady driving it (and doesn't want to scare her). Computer control cars are not the same as our old point and carb'ed cars. One thing you might do that Prowler owners say livens it up nore than any is to install gears in the final drive. Check with Dean at Prowler Pro on our home page. ------------------
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Supervette Prowler Junkie Posts: 43 |
posted 11-23-2002 08:12 AM
That is a myth about computer controlled cars. They do not get a memory for the way they were broke in. What happens on most is the ciruit that controls the TPS senses how fast it is opening and how often, and if you are hot rodding around, it and tune for those conditions at that time. That is why when you are getting with it around town your car seems so responsive. On the other hand after some long steady highway crusing and then you start to get into it your car doesn't seem to have the responsiveness. There was a post a while back on the corvette forum where a guy really went into depth about this, but I was not able to find it to further explain. |
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ed monahan Prowler Junkie Posts: 33595 |
posted 11-23-2002 01:13 PM
Supervette, I was so disappointed in my new PT last year that I tried resetting the computer, even though I knew it was probably bogus and it would not help. It helped tremendously as it resets the computer to the original factory specs. You may have to reset the computer occasionally but I am convinced that it works, eventhough I was totally skeptical before doing it. I have to come up a very steep hill close to home and the difference is unbelievable. I am not an engineer so I cannot explain it. I only know that it worked. jomo |
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red2k300m unregistered Posts: 33595 |
posted 11-23-2002 02:57 PM
You guys are missing my point. My point is I don't believe this engines ever made 253hp, and are overrated. But I am looking for an engine dyno result to support my claim. |
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Marty Usher Prowler Junkie Posts: 13833 |
posted 11-23-2002 04:01 PM
Losing that much HP to the rear wheels is disappointing. I have heard of only two dyno runs of the 3.5L with reading at the crank instaed of rear wheel. They were 239 HP and 254 HP. Several POA members have dynoed their stock cars and rear wheelreading are in the 176 to 177 range. With nitrous, supercharger, or turbos addded the rear wheel HP achieved by some is in the 330 to 350 range. There have bewen some Prowlers running in the 12's in a quarter mile and several have broken in the 11's. Pretty fast for a street cruiser.
------------------  Driving my Dream |
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red2k300m unregistered Posts: 13833 |
posted 11-23-2002 04:21 PM
I would like to see those engine dyno runs, as they would settle this agrument. It would actually be better if the same car dyno'd at the wheels and then the crank.
quote: |
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WildCat Prowler Junkie Posts: 6862 |
posted 11-23-2002 05:57 PM
I would say the 253 HP is in IDEAL conditions with no accesories on the engine at the flywheel. Add the ac/ps/charging system and drivetrain you are going to get the 170~180 RWHP most get for a stock dyno'ed Cat. Overrated maybe not in ideal conditions, but it sure isn't underrated like the old cars This message has been edited by WildCat on 11-23-2002 at 08:30 PM |
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Marty Usher Prowler Junkie Posts: 13833 |
posted 11-24-2002 12:34 PM
quote: red2k300m - As I said in my earlier post, I only "heard" about these dyno runs. You know how it is at car shows when everyone is standing around talking. Sorry I can't help you with actual dyno results. Following up on what Wildcat posted, I would believe 253 to be under "ideal" setting. I am sure Chrysler has something to show where they got the number. If you want to go faster, the bigger issue to me is the lack of R & D that has been done with the 3.5. Everybody is virtually on a trial and error path on everything from fuel delivery to bore & stroke and cam work. It's certainly not like having a small block Chevy and being able to buy proven parts out of a catalogue. Good luck with your onw quest for speed. ------------------ Driving my Dream |
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red2k300m unregistered Posts: 13833 |
posted 11-24-2002 04:42 PM
Well I have my 2000 Grand Prix GTP for going (relatively)fast. I'm just concerned that this car is falsely overrated and should be much faster with the advertised HP rating. Chrysler rates the 3.5L at 253hp SAE Net, which means testing with all accessories on. Your theory is they are rating using using the SAE gross method(from the muscle car era). |
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JUST JP Prowler Junkie Posts: 1023 |
posted 11-25-2002 02:37 AM
red2k300m, I agree with you. I think the engine is overrated. If that can be proven, maybe Chrysler could be pushed to "make it right" as Ford did for the "overrated" Cobra. The only person I know of that removes the engines is Dean at ProwlerPro. I've been meaning to e-mail him and ask if he knows a way to get it dynoed. Please keep me informed of your progress. Thanks for making this an issue. ------------------ |
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Black Tie 161 Prowler Junkie Posts: 3563 |
posted 11-25-2002 03:50 PM
red...how did ever I miss this thread since it is so close to mine in topic? I never saw it until you guided me here... Why isn't Larry Lord insulting you too??? |
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YellowFever unregistered Posts: 3563 |
posted 11-25-2002 04:08 PM
quote: Oh God, incoming.......... |
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TLRandall Prowler Junkie Posts: 3855 |
posted 11-25-2002 04:19 PM
This could get ugly ------------------ |
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GRROWL Prowler Junkie Posts: 2404 |
posted 11-25-2002 06:04 PM
quote:
quote: Amen! GRROWL |
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Mike Krehel Administrating Kat Posts: 3047 |
posted 11-25-2002 07:14 PM
This has strayed way off topic, so off it goes. There's another thread about this subject in Prowler Performance: http://www.prowleronline.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000699.html |
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JUST JP Prowler Junkie Posts: 1023 |
posted 11-26-2002 03:52 AM
For those that think this IS an issue, let's talk about how to address the problem of proving it. First, NO I DO NOT want to sue Chrysler. I just would like my engine to produce the amount of power that it was "stated" to produce. My ideas are these. We need to find a person or company that has a flywheel stand/dyno that can measure the engine horsepower. I'm thinking that Dean at ProwlerPro might have access or know someone who does. Or, maybe one of the crate motor companies would have one of these machines. The next step would be to have someone allow them to remove the engine and dyno it at the flywheel. Then, we would have "proof" that the engine was overrated. Once we find said machine, and a volunteer near said machine, we could take a collection to pay for the test. ------------------ |
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TOY4REY Prowler Junkie Posts: 57 |
posted 12-02-2002 03:04 PM
So what was the conclusion to this thread....I'm interested if anyone found out how much HP the Prowler is really running stock?>?
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YellowFever unregistered Posts: 57 |
posted 12-02-2002 06:20 PM
quote: Well, there are about 5-6 different threads running on this but, Marty stated it very well in one of them how they (DC) test an engine (out of a car) without anything like A/C or exhaust, tranny, etc. and in an ideal environment and that is were the 253 hp figure comes from. You or me dynoing a car, has all those extra things dragging it down, including the tranny and different environments. The net result is a loss of about 40% of what the car is stated to have in terms of hp or the difference between rear wheel and flywheel (gee, I'm begining to think I even sound like a mechanic....[no comments from the cheap seats]) So somewhere between 160 and 170 is the real rear wheel hp of the Prowler. Not too bad once someone spelled it all out where it went. On the plus side, there appears to be 2-3 chip makers that are plannign on releasing chips to boost the car 25-30hp (on a stock car)... |
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red2k300m unregistered Posts: 57 |
posted 12-03-2002 05:50 AM
What Marty said was purely his opinion. I don't believe he had any inside information on the dynoing procedure at Chrysler. There are two treads going in the performance section if you are still interested.
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Marty Usher Prowler Junkie Posts: 13833 |
posted 12-03-2002 06:48 AM
deleted post, sorry! This message has been edited by Marty Usher on 12-03-2002 at 08:04 AM |
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TOY4REY Prowler Junkie Posts: 57 |
posted 12-03-2002 10:39 AM
So if the HP is not stated right...i'm assuming that nither is the 255 @3950 RPM Torque??
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red2k300m unregistered Posts: 57 |
posted 12-03-2002 01:19 PM
Taking the numbers from the numerous dyno's of Prowlers that have been discussed on this board, it appears both the engine and torque ratings are off assuming 22% drivetrain loss. |
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