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Author Topic:   boost fuel pressure--HELP
butchcee


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posted 07-23-2004 03:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
Went to Ida's today for a tune up.Car ran great and made good numbers considering 100 humidity(rain) 74 dew point and 82 degrees.All the right #'s NOT to make HP.Still ended up with 293HP and 355 torque. Here's my problem--there are bleeds on the system to control boost. One of the caps came off and I was making 14 lbs of boost that settled down to 12 at high end. On a cold day the boost will be higher. I have no problem with this except my A/F is at 14.2 and I need to either pump more fuel or cut boost. MSD makes a pressure booster regulated by boost pressure that increases voltage to the pump to increase flow. MSD say it cannot guarantee the stock pump at the higher voltage.What have you guys done to increase fuel flow?

This message has been edited by butchcee on 07-23-2004 at 03:33 PM

jd2ksilver


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posted 07-23-2004 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jd2ksilver     send a private message to jd2ksilver   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by jd2ksilver
Go to Prowlerpro. He modifies the existing pump and sends it back. RSI does it too, but it is my understanding they took their idea from Dean himself. And his products, although sometimes pricey, is the best quality I have found. And follow up support is great.

Thats a lot of torque,, cool

butchcee


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posted 07-23-2004 04:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
Thanks for the info JD--have you used Dean's product? I hate to pull the pump out again. Took a while to get it sealed back up after the last removal.Anyone used this MSD system? Ida has been using it on his TT ford 150 for a while.
Marty Usher



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posted 07-24-2004 08:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marty Usher     send a private message to Marty Usher   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Marty Usher
Al - Dean and RSI are only ones I know that make upgrade specifically for our cars. I have a couple of people claim the pumps did not work as well as claimed (from both) and others say they work great. I guess you just better check the flow rates once an install is done.

I contacted Walbro - maker of our OEM pumps and they don't have anything that will work to increase flow on our systems.

RSI did a seperate fuel system for the nitrous on MikeK's high boy and IDa did one for George (StreeBlue) 300M.

An inline booster pump won't work, vso I am told, because our cars don't have a return line- the fule gets returned through a valve in the fuelpump.

TBlatnica


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posted 07-24-2004 09:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TBlatnica     send a private message to TBlatnica   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by TBlatnica
Butchee,

This MSD system is similar(a copy cat) to the system developed by Kenne Bell a while back called the "Boost-a-Pump". Theoretically it is a sound Idea, the problem you get is with sustained usage at high boost, the pump can overheat. IF you have a submerged pump intank, this is not a problem until you run down to below a 1/4 tank. That is when the problems occur. It was initially developed for Mustangs and Turbo Buicks, using an inline pump, which most users if you ask or find them would tell you the Boost-A-Pump is a POS. I really could not suggest this or an alternative, until I see the A/F lines on the dyno map.

What is the actual voltage to your pump? I used to race a Volvo Turbo, and by hardwiring it with 0 Copper wire and its own relay, I increased my voltage to the pump by almost .6 volts, which doesn't sound like much, but made a big difference in consistency of fuel flow at 20PSI boost.

Don't know if any of this helped, but ... I tried...

------------------
Tony Blatnica

butchcee


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posted 07-25-2004 03:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
Marty--thanks for the info--I thought the pump from Dean was a Viper pump grafted to our housing? Jerry Gena mentioned on Dean's site that he was getting 10 more pounds of pressure at idle and 2 1/2 times the volume with this setup. Not sure if he's verified this,or just quoting figures from Dean. Ida ran a separate line for me also through the stock pump top to an aux inline pump with a return line. Complications made me decide me to remove that aux supply and use the stock pump only.I was going to use Dean's system, now you have me thinking with bad reports.Going to have to research more.

Tony--thank you also.I called MSD and they wouldn't even recommend their own product and said there could be pump failure with higher voltage. Interesting what you said about the pump rewire.I saw something for a Jeep Cherokee that was offered by an aftermarket company to increase the headlight brightness by replacing part of the stock harness with heavier gauge wire for less voltage drop.I gave some thought to the higher voltage thing and with our pump using a mechanical spring controlled internal tank return as Marty mentioned,the speeding up of the pump would have to overcome the bypass capabilities of the return to give more pressure.
Oh well, I thought I was done.

This message has been edited by butchcee on 07-25-2004 at 09:43 AM

cnote6





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posted 07-25-2004 11:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cnote6     send a private message to cnote6   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by cnote6
Keep me informed, I need to do somethnig with the fuel.

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butchcee


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posted 07-25-2004 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
Chris--if $ was no object I would get the Viper-Prowler pump and control the engine timing retard, factory injectors and aux injectors with the Perfect Power SMT 6 controller and eliminate the Paxton controller. I'm already using the SMT 6 controller for timing retard (7 degrees at max boost) and using the SMT 5 for the aux injector.I need to upgrade to the 6 on the fuel side which will control the factory injectors if I use the higher volume pump. http://www.idaautomotive.com/products.asp

This message has been edited by butchcee on 07-25-2004 at 04:25 PM

butchcee


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posted 07-26-2004 09:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
For anyone interested--I was looking around for a high performance replacement pump for our cars and they really cost $$$!
I was looking on the Viper site and saw that some had luck with the Walbro 255 pump that flows 255 litres per hour of fuel at high pressure. Further looking showed that this was a pump of choice for most HP applications in a variety of cars and could support big HP.See here for applications: http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/fpapps.html

Naturally-they didn't have one for our car, BUT They do have one for the Neon that uses the same type pump as ours... I think
Here's a couple of pics of our pump and then a pic of the High Pressure kit available for the Neon as shown on this site.

They look the same to me right down to the sealing o-ring and the filter. Going to call Walbro tomorrow and try to get some answers.

This message has been edited by butchcee on 07-27-2004 at 07:28 AM

cnote6





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posted 07-26-2004 10:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cnote6     send a private message to cnote6   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by cnote6
WOW!!!! Thanks!!!! I will send the $10 finders fee ASAP!! Very Cool!!

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Mike Krehel





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posted 07-26-2004 10:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Krehel     send a private message to Mike Krehel   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Mike Krehel
Al,

I don't know if you've replaced the pump before, but it's quite tricky getting the large O-ring to stay in place between the lid and the tank body.

I found that the easiest way is to set the pump into position in the tank first, then while holding the pump down tightly with one hand slip the O-ring over the top of the pump and let it fall into position under the lid of the pump, then while still holding it down tight, screw the cap back on. You may need some help doing this, but it will assure a tight seal and no check engine light. Miller makes a special tool to remove the screw on cap ring. The first time I did one without the tool, I boogered up a couple of the tabs.

Oh, also be careful not to bend the float assembly or damage the resistive sensor while rebuilding the pump assembly.

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Mike Krehel
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butchcee


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posted 07-27-2004 12:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
Mike--thanks for the tip. I've had the pump out a couple of times.I know it's real easy to mess up the o-ring. It was done to me by others during a pump reinstall after taking out the aux fuel system .I found it when I replaced the pump and found the o-ring twisted and out of place. I have to deal with a warped tank neck also which I'm guessing came from over tightening the cap with the pump not aligned by the pins. I finally got it sealed with a new pump, o-ring , homemade shim, and screw cap. If this pump fits, it will supply more volume, but will still be limited in pressure by what looks like a DC supplied preset relief valve.
Not sure if the extra fuel volume will get me by or I need to replace or modify this part. If the pump fits, I'll pressure test the pump before putting it in the car to check before and after.I might even be able to do a rough volume check. Hope I don't end up like Jr in case of a spark.

This message has been edited by butchcee on 07-27-2004 at 12:49 AM

butchcee


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posted 07-27-2004 12:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
Chris--send the finder's fee to AC for all the times he got beat out of the chrome grill treatment
BTW,he big bolts you see in the above pic were used to plug the holes where the aux feed and return lines were.
These wont be in a stock pump.

This message has been edited by butchcee on 07-27-2004 at 12:52 AM

Marty Usher



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posted 07-27-2004 08:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marty Usher     send a private message to Marty Usher   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Marty Usher
Al - I was not trying to "badmouth" anyone. Just wanted to report what I had heard about the fuel pumps. I have no bad experience with either Dean or RSI. In fact, Dean has always been very helpful when I contact him about a performance issue. My point is whatever pump you choose to use, I'd suggest you test it to be sure you get the fuel delivery you are looking for rather than assuming it will perform as you want.

Marty

butchcee


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posted 07-27-2004 09:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
Hey Marty--I never got that impression and feel that you were just reporting the facts from prior info.
As I posted above, I plan to do a pressure test before install and think I'll be able to to a rough volume check also. As you had done,I called Walbro and they were little help and I couldn't get past customer service.
Marc-Colo-99


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posted 07-27-2004 09:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc-Colo-99     send a private message to Marc-Colo-99   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Marc-Colo-99
Al, been out of town fishing and just noticed your post. Have you talked to Dean? I've been running his pump in my car for over 2 years and haven't had a problem. I have probably made over 30 passes at the track and way to many to count on the street and Lake Mojave since the install. I estimate in the last 2 years have put over 250 pounds of N2O through the motor and have yet to run out of fuel with a 100hp shot. I did finally hurt the motor this spring but after 4 years of racing with nitrous on the motor I figure a spun bearing was due.
The only quirk I have experianced with Deans pump is now and then when it's hot out and the motor is also hot I have to toggle the key to get it to prime, but according to some of the Viper guys at the track they have the same problem now and then. Mine was only the second one Dean made and I would imagine even this quirk is worked out. I figure I can live with it.

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This message has been edited by Marc-Colo-99 on 07-27-2004 at 09:06 PM

butchcee


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posted 07-28-2004 02:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
Marc--YGM
cnote6





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posted 07-29-2004 12:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cnote6     send a private message to cnote6   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by cnote6
Guess Im calling Dean.......... Can I get any CC##s???????

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butchcee


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posted 07-29-2004 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
Got the new pump today--same as ours in size--on to testing.
cnote6





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posted 07-29-2004 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cnote6     send a private message to cnote6   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by cnote6
and then????????

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butchcee


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posted 07-29-2004 05:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
It appears that this unit might be a home run--for me anyway. Both pumps gave the same pressure--58 lbs. This is dictated by the regulator. The flow test was simple. I primed the pumps to make sure they were flowing fuel. I dumped the fuel back in the main bucket and ran the fuel down to a measured level watching time.The stock pump took 2 min 1 sec to get to the mark and the new pump took 1 min and 36 sec. A considerable difference. Back to Ida next week for another dyno run to verify results. The pump is the same outside and comes with a new pickup filter and sealing o-rings and a tool to help open the module. You'll have to swap out the wire block that attaches the wires to the pump.


SteelBlue01


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posted 07-29-2004 10:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteelBlue01     send a private message to SteelBlue01   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by SteelBlue01
You really fast tracked this one Al. It'll be close timing but hopefully it'll get you off the A/F borderline. It's slated to be a high of 82/low of 65 and only 10% chance of precip at Englishtown on the 6th so the stage is set for some good numbers.
cnote6





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posted 07-30-2004 12:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cnote6     send a private message to cnote6   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by cnote6
Your the best, Now how do I get one cheap???????

LOL.TF

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butchcee


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posted 07-30-2004 02:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
George, thanks for the weather prediction.Sounds it will be a pretty good night. Ida can get me in next week. The final plan is for dual mapping for 11 and 15 lbs of boost depending on what I want to put in the tank and switchable
from a dash switch.

This will take a couple of days and some dyno time. Going to put the pump in tomorrow and see what I get and decide.
Chris, You can get the pump delivered for $115.50 from
the auto performance engineering site above. That's not bad for a 20% increase in fuel volume. I think that should support at least 360 RWHP.

butchcee


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posted 07-30-2004 10:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
Chris--the place is in Garland, Tx, so you might save some as a dealer and using your tax ID.
972-530 8729

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