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Author Topic:   Prowler Performance Torque Converter
RPL




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posted 07-23-2003 09:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RPL     send a private message to RPL   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by RPL
I know that this should be in either the performance or group purchase areas but I needed as many to see it as possible because I need to understand if there is interest.

Several people have been working behind the scenes to have a performance torque convertor developed for Prowler for the past three years.

TCI, a leading supplier, has investigated what it would take to make one starting with disassembly of a new one we gave them. They need about fifty (total) interested people to proceed. A word of caution; changing the converter is much more involved than adding the available gears. The converter will work with or without the gears.

They are offering to make one of two alternative designs or both if there is a relatively even split of interest totaling 50.

The first is a modified stock converter with a 300 RPM increase in stall speed for approximately $250 outright plus shipping. This should be good for about .2 seconds in the quarter mile.

The second is a steel replacement stator with a 500/600 RPM increase in stall speed for approximately $650 outright plus shipping. This should be good for about .5 seconds in the quarter mile and will compromise street drivability a little.

Lead time from a decision to proceed is approximately 8 weeks on the first alternative and 12 to 16 on the second.

Think about it, if you're interested, e-mail me at Bob with which alternative you'd be interested in. The purchase would be directly from TCI Automotive. I'm only facilitating the project.

This message has been edited by RPL on 07-24-2003 at 01:42 PM

Marty Usher



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posted 07-24-2003 08:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marty Usher     send a private message to Marty Usher   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Marty Usher
Finally !!! Bob, I am sure it comes as no surprise I am interested. Since my car in a daily driver - can you explain in more detail how the second option may affect drivabilty?

Thanks

CTProwler



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posted 07-24-2003 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CTProwler     send a private message to CTProwler   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by CTProwler
I'm with Marty????

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c.mangeng


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posted 07-24-2003 09:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for c.mangeng     send a private message to c.mangeng   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by c.mangeng
Marty, I know your more savy in this area and have probably done some research, isn't there a kit available for this transmission (ie bigger accumulator springs, etc to increase its performance). Didn't this transaxal come off and existing mopar product, thus mass produced, with possible upgrades available? Looking at other posts on the Katt there seems to be almost a 100Hp loss through the transmission, what kind of rear HP gain are we talking about with the new torque converters? Anybody have an idea what it will cost to get the torque converter installed on this animal? It's beyond my confort zone at this time, but I'm may get brave enough in 5-10 years. :D
RPL




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posted 07-24-2003 09:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RPL     send a private message to RPL   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by RPL
Better off explaining one-on-one because there are different ways to describe how a higher stall speed torque convertor affects feel. The modified convertor improves launch similar to gear sets available but in a different way. An actual example is when the converter was changed in a Prowler. The car with the higher stall speed convertor traveled 22 feet farther than the stock car during the first five seconds after the throttle was opened. The launch improves more than the improvement over the entire quarter mile.

Does this make any sense? Reading over this I can see that what I know is going to be difficult to communicate in a manner that everyone will understand. Anyone that truly knows want to take a cut at explaining this?

Changing a converter requires removing the transaxle from the car, if I'm not mistaken. Anyone want to look this up in their service manual? This isn't a project for everyone.

dpena




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posted 07-24-2003 10:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dpena     send a private message to dpena   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by dpena
You can check out JD's tranny rebuild pics I took back when he had his KAT in the shop.

Here is what BOB is talking about modifying.

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dpena




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posted 07-24-2003 10:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dpena     send a private message to dpena   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by dpena
Sorry, left out the link...

Click Here for JD's Prowler tranny rebuild.


Later...

c.mangeng


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posted 07-24-2003 10:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for c.mangeng     send a private message to c.mangeng   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by c.mangeng
dpena, list of mods to JD's transaxle looks extensive, did it make a difference in perfomance (ie more HP at rear wheels) and what was the cost? I'm assuming these are over the counter parts and if I gave this list to an auto parts dealer he would be able to set me up...right? Do you think a tranny shop could do this job, if not where would you recommend? Though I'm familiar with what a torque convertor is,location and function, instalation/removal is beyond me. How does the heavy duty torque convertor that JD installed compare to the one Bob has mentioned. Feel free to chime in Bob or anybody else.
RPL




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posted 07-24-2003 10:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RPL     send a private message to RPL   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by RPL
Okay JD, how does the modified converter in you car feel?
dpena




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posted 07-25-2003 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dpena     send a private message to dpena   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by dpena
c.mangeng,

Please email JD if he does not answer this post.

I will tell you the little I know and hope JD does not get all over me for this but he had this work done by a dealer that called in a tranny shop. It came well recommended and JD jumped on it.

All these parts are over the counter parts and your local tranny shop that has experiance working on 42LE trannys could tackle the job. How good of a job he does depends on whether he does good work and is dependable.

JD gave me some rides after the work was done and the shifts were very strong and the KAT pulled hard.


Later..

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Marty Usher



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posted 07-26-2003 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marty Usher     send a private message to Marty Usher   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Marty Usher
Hey Performance People - don't let this die!
So many people have bought gears, superchargers, nitrous, turbos, etc. and complained about how much HP is lost to the rear wheels.

Here is a chance to get some extra performance at a fraction of the cost of gears.

A .2 sec win in the 1/4 mile on the strip equates itself to several car lengths. A 1/2 second difference is braggin' time at the end of the race.

I sure hope more people express interest in this!

Happy Prowling

JRL

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posted 07-26-2003 02:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JRL     send a private message to JRL   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by JRL
Will these mods help the lock up?
I don't care about it shifting any harder but the parasitic loss especially in 3rd and overdrive is rediculous.
JRL
REBELBOB


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posted 07-26-2003 03:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for REBELBOB     send a private message to REBELBOB   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by REBELBOB
Definitely count me in for option 2.
Marty is right a .5 second increase will definitely give you some bragging rights !
Marty Usher



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posted 07-26-2003 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marty Usher     send a private message to Marty Usher   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Marty Usher
Hopefully we can pass the word about this at the Smokies and other events. If we can get enough participation, the pricing is very good compared trying to have this done on an individual basis.

As with other Prowler aftermarket modifications, we need to be able to provide the vendor with a reasonable number of potential clients to spread all the R & D costs over.

Mike Krehel





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posted 07-26-2003 03:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Krehel     send a private message to Mike Krehel   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Mike Krehel
Bob,

Thanks for your effort in trying to put this deal together. I'll take 3 pieces with option 2.

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Mike Krehel
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jd2ksilver


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posted 07-26-2003 04:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jd2ksilver     send a private message to jd2ksilver   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by jd2ksilver
quote:
Originally posted by RPL:
Okay JD, how does the modified converter in you car feel?

Let's put it this way, Dan can't catch me.

What is quoted as harder shifting translates into far less slippage form the torque converter when going into the next gear.
My car is very street-able under normal driving, under hard acceleration you don't feel the gear going away (slipping) nearly as bad as in a stock tranny. Fourth gear still slips some but is half of what it was. The mechanic who actually did the work had excellent referrals, and was frankly amazed at the results. But remember I didn't stop at just the torque converter.

Go for it.

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This message has been edited by jd2ksilver on 07-26-2003 at 06:41 PM

Laddie Roussel





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posted 07-26-2003 09:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Laddie Roussel     send a private message to Laddie Roussel   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Laddie Roussel
I've had modified Converter in my 99 for over three years. Bought a new stock converter and sent to company in TX where it was modified to somewhere around 300 to 500 rpms. It takes around six hours to replace Converter. The converter itself only takes about 10 minutes to replace. But, you have to drop the transmission, axle and reinstall and that takes around six hours. My Chrsyler tech did my install and when he test drove Kat he thought stall was increased to around 500 rpms... Now, I'm not sure I could really tell any difference. This is not a do it yourself job for most Prowler Owners.

I installed the converter first, than the Paxton, than the gears... Based on my experience, I think any improvement in 1/4 time would be closer to the .2 than the .5 with stock tires. There are just so many variables that affect 1/4 times, it's very hard to try and identify the direct correlation of any one change with all other variables being the same (that just doesn't happen in real life out here on the strip or street)...

Personnaly, I'd do the change again. And, this way I wouldn't have to buy a new converter to start with... Just understand you'll have some labor costs in addition to costs of the modified torque converter. (labor costs shouldn't be any different for either version of the torque converter)

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JRL

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posted 07-27-2003 07:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JRL     send a private message to JRL   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by JRL
As I said, I'm looking for STREET performance, not track, and from that you're saying here there is an improvement.
I don't think I've ever owner a car with such a poor transmission (stock)
JRL
butchcee


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posted 07-27-2003 08:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
My two cents. If you're not going to race your car, street or track, a converter with more slip wont be the answer for you.
For those that don't know what a torque converter is, think of 2 soup bowls facing each other, bowl to bowl with fins in them radiating out from the center to the edge. The engine is connected to one bowl and the transmission to the other filled with fluid---a fluid coupling. As the engine turns one bowl, the action of the circulating oil tries to turn the second one going to the tranny. The amount of distance between the fins and angle of the fins in the bowls determines the slip. When you install a slippier converter or one with a smaller diameter or with trimmed fins, you allow the engine to get to a higher horsepower level during launch giving you a better push off the line. The downfall is that this extra slip can generate heat. The more slip, the more heat plus there is a spongy feeling to the fluid connection in high stall converters. You get used to this and there should me no loss of efficiency in high gear lockup. The parasitic power loss of the tranny wont be reduced with a different converter and might increase in the lower gears because of the less efficient transmission of power due to slip. I think the earlier Cats had a tighter converter and there was a change in late 2000 to a looser one that gave better off the line acceleration that could be felt by seat of the pants. Bob, put me down for one high stall unit. Also, I think Dean at Prowler Pro mentioned to me that you could do a converter change without tranny drop.
I dont have detailed info on this.

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JRL

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posted 07-27-2003 08:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JRL     send a private message to JRL   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by JRL
So my question still is this:
Is there a tranny mod that can help with the huge general slippage loss of the Prowler transmission?
JRL
butchcee


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posted 07-27-2003 08:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for butchcee     send a private message to butchcee   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by butchcee
I think the only real slippage with the stock tranny is when you full power into 4th. JD seemed to fix some of this with his mods and it isn't a problem with a stock Cat. The power drain from this tranmission is in it's design. I dont think there can ever be a cure for that. Dont forget that this tranny was pirated from the DC front wheel drive program where a compact unit might have been the main design parameter.

This message has been edited by butchcee on 07-27-2003 at 09:13 AM

JRL

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posted 07-27-2003 04:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JRL     send a private message to JRL   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by JRL
3rd gear is also quite bad with slippage
JRL
SteelBlue01


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posted 07-27-2003 10:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteelBlue01     send a private message to SteelBlue01   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by SteelBlue01
I agree Bob. I haven't posted much on performance issues recently but we've been busy on them in our 300M with the same 3.5L/42LE combo (in FWD), including the trans. The ProwlerPro gears had been in for a long while and later at about 12K miles we had a complete rebuild done with performance parts out of Schucks in CA. On the tailend of the rebuild, after the trans was back in, the torque converter was installed while it was still up on the lift. Compared to the rebuild itself the torque converter install would have been a 4 bolt jiffy job if we hadn't been sent one that used an oddball off-set bolt pattern instead of a match to our 2001 equilateral pattern. The first three bolts went in fine but we got hosed on the 4th. Some on-the-fly tooling adapted that though. Later we had a limited slip/locker differential conversion unit installed in the diff along with a custom aluminum Moroso trans pan with 2 1/2 quart added capacity, drain bung, and trans fluid temp gauge sensor bung. All done for a mix and match of performance gain and to aid longevity. From memory I'd estimate the stock TC was around a 1700 rpm stall unit. To estimate your own, many people power brake to max rpm and note that, others feel it's more accurate to be off the brake and just nail the throttle on level ground and note to what point it tachs to before forward motion begins. Due to potential heat generation from prolonged around town driving I opted for a 2600 rpm stall, there are times racing I wish I had opted for one higher, but that's being addressed otherwise. Having it I'd consider 2600-2800 to be in the comfort zone with the PP or GF gears, minus them I'd stay lower. A foundational problem is in both 3rd and 4th as Bob says. The fluid pressure that provides clamping action to the varied clutch pack combos used for each gear is measurably lower for 3rd (direct) and 4th (OD), maybe around 65-70% less than for Rev, 1st, and 2nd. The specifics are in the service manuals. In rodded Prowlers, Ms, etc, the end result is 3rd and 4th get pushed to slippage by higher powered 3.5Ls under WOT. One way to help avoid damage is to complete the 1/4 at the top of 3rd and stay out of 4th all together. 3rd does remain more vulnerable than 1st and 2nd but it is less vulnerable than 4th because it has more ratio working for it to release the torque as the engine tachs up sufficiently, though in time or severe circumstances it will go right behind 4th given the power and WOT use. It would be great if someone could find an answer to improving the hydraulic drive pressure to 3rd and 4th as a separate issue. The higher stall TC will improve launch by allowing the engine to quickly wind to a higher rpm point in the torque/hp curves to launch from. I haven't had any adverse indications since any of the trans work and there were enough months between the TC install and trans pan install for heat generation or other problems to reveal themselves. If I don't kill it running at the Mopar Nationals we'll be at Woodward and hope to link up with Bob to say hi and meet some more board members as we did at the All-Chrysler Nats in Carlisle.

George & Jackie Deane - 2001 Chrysler 300M aka/M'ZILLA

PS Oops forgot, Bob I noticed in the other thread you're checking into a SSBC brake conversion kit for the Prowlers. I've been running their slotted rotor kit and 9-1-1 extreme duty pads all around for a few months now and they're great. Good company and good products.

This message has been edited by SteelBlue01 on 07-27-2003 at 11:35 PM

Top Kat


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posted 07-27-2003 11:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Top Kat     send a private message to Top Kat   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by Top Kat
Bob, Put me down for the street version. I don't plan to race my car but I am adding more power. I am presently working on a conversion to replace the 3.5 with the 5.7 HEMI. I realize the tranny is the weak link and needs help, although I will have to say my "01" does shift much harder than I expected it to. Would like to "Bench Race" with you guys in the Smokies, and get more info on the "tranny deal".
Jim

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idive


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posted 07-28-2003 02:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for idive     send a private message to idive   Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote   Search for more posts by idive
quote:
Originally posted by Top Kat:
... Would like to "Bench Race" with you guys in the Smokies, and get more info on the "tranny deal".
Jim


Just dont get a "Bench Warrant" doing it!

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Mickey
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This message has been edited by idive on 07-28-2003 at 02:10 AM


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